Tournament Tie Break Question

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mithokie
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Tournament Tie Break Question

Post by mithokie »

In the following situation, what would you advise as a tie-break procedure.

4 teams play a round robin on a set of 3 available packets and there are no additional packets available to play off any possible ties. Trophies are to be awarded for 1st place and 2nd place only.

What tie-break procedure would you recommend for
A. Two teams finish with a 2-1 record and Two teams finish with a 1-2 record.
B. Three Teams finish with a 2-1 record (Circle of death, A beats B, B beats C, C beats A) and one team finishes 0-3
C. One team finishes with a 3-0 record and the other three teams finish with a 1-2 record (Circle of death again).

Thanks,
Matt Beeken
Blacksburg High School
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btressler
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Re: Tournament Tie Break Question

Post by btressler »

I guess I'll vote for total points scored in all cases.

Scenario (A) is the only place where head-to-head might apply, and I personally have never liked using head-to-head because it essentially double counts a match.
Bill Tressler,
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Pushkin's Beard
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Re: Tournament Tie Break Question

Post by Pushkin's Beard »

At most of the tournaments I have been to, PPB has been used to break ties.
Noah Cowan
Georgetown Day School '15

mithokie
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Re: Tournament Tie Break Question

Post by mithokie »

This pertains to VHSL competition where PPB is a non-existant statistic since there are no bonus questions. I am working to influence the decision makers who will determine the tie-break procedures when VHSL moves to round robin competition (6 clasifications with 4 teams each) at the state level for the 2013-2014 season. My favorite is total points as a first tie-break, with head-to-head as the 2nd tie break in the event that total points does not break the tie.
Matt Beeken
Blacksburg High School
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Whiter Hydra
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Re: Tournament Tie Break Question

Post by Whiter Hydra »

The generally accepted practice is that ties within a division are broken by PPG (since everyone has played common opponents), while ties between teams in different divisions are broken by PPB (since the fact that both teams would be playing different opponents would not change how well one does on bonuses).
Harry White
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Masked Canadian History Bandit
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Re: Tournament Tie Break Question

Post by Masked Canadian History Bandit »

mithokie wrote:This pertains to VHSL competition where PPB is a non-existant statistic since there are no bonus questions. I am working to influence the decision makers who will determine the tie-break procedures when VHSL moves to round robin competition (6 clasifications with 4 teams each) at the state level for the 2013-2014 season. My favorite is total points as a first tie-break, with head-to-head as the 2nd tie break in the event that total points does not break the tie.
PPG, then head-to-head if necessary, is probably the way to go here.
Patrick Liao
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mithokie
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Re: Tournament Tie Break Question

Post by mithokie »

It looks like head-to-head has been proposed as the first tie breaker (by the VHSL Scholastic Bowl Advisory Committee) with Total Points (basically PPG) as the second. This is probably going to end up as a Total Points tie-break most of the time since situations B and C are much more likely (in my opinion at least) than situation A. Thanks for the input.
Matt Beeken
Blacksburg High School
Math and Physics Teacher
(2012-??)ACE Coach, Blacksburg HS
(2010-12) ACE CO-Coach, Blacksburg HS
(2011-12) Science MACC Coach, Blacksburg HS
Volunteer Assistant (2009-2010) ACE Coach, Blacksburg HS
mbeeken AT mcps DOT org

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Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
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Re: Tournament Tie Break Question

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

I would strongly oppose head to head being a tiebreaker ever, because the head to head result was what created the tie in the first place.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
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Matt Weiner
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Re: Tournament Tie Break Question

Post by Matt Weiner »

mithokie wrote:It looks like head-to-head has been proposed as the first tie breaker (by the VHSL Scholastic Bowl Advisory Committee) with Total Points (basically PPG) as the second. This is probably going to end up as a Total Points tie-break most of the time since situations B and C are much more likely (in my opinion at least) than situation A. Thanks for the input.
HSAPQ is willing to continue to provide an eight-packet set to the State level so that ties for first place can be played off. Either of these tiebreakers are faintly ridiculous (head-to-head since it usually rewards the worse team, total points since it will determine the state championship based on who beat up on the last-place team more severely, which is both a poor predictor of the superior team and a sportsmanship issue).

Please convey to the Advisory Committee that this is the case.
Matt Weiner
Founder of hsquizbowl.org

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ProfessorIanDuncan
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Re: Tournament Tie Break Question

Post by ProfessorIanDuncan »

I know this sounds ridiculous, but I think that in case A points per game should be used as a tiebreaker and in cases B and C points per game should be used BUT the result against the team that won/lost all their games should be disregarded because the margin of defeat/victory against that team shouldn't be significant.

I know this sounds unnecessarily convoluted but I think it could work ok.
Alec Vulfson
Irvington High School '13

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Whiter Hydra
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Re: Tournament Tie Break Question

Post by Whiter Hydra »

ProfessorIanDuncan wrote:I know this sounds ridiculous, but I think that in case A points per game should be used as a tiebreaker and in cases B and C points per game should be used BUT the result against the team that won/lost all their games should be disregarded because the margin of defeat/victory against that team shouldn't be significant.

I know this sounds unnecessarily convoluted but I think it could work ok.
Why should you throw out the result of a perfectly good game against a common opponent? The larger the sample size, the better.
Harry White
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ProfessorIanDuncan
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Re: Tournament Tie Break Question

Post by ProfessorIanDuncan »

Now that I think about it again, if there is a 3-0 team in the playoffs it should be total points because the team that advances should be the team that would be most competitive against the best competition. If there is a 0-3 team then beating a team that is not doing as well by a big margin doesn't make you a more competitive team. I guess the main problem with my suggestion would be that the teams are being compared on differnt questions. Also why not use margin as a tiebreaker? I don't see a particular need to, but im curious nonetheless.
Alec Vulfson
Irvington High School '13

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