New York Discussion 2012-13

[Lightly Seared on the Reality Grill]

Well, it's another year. Things are looking a bit more promising this year in terms of activity (as far as the Metro area goes) with Scarsdale already locking in two NAQT tournaments and Great Neck South possibly hosting something, in addition to LIFT, KPAQT, and (most likely) the Hills West Invitational. I'm a bit bummed that Stony Brook can't add anything to the schedule (there is VERY little available space on campus during weekends and it gets taken up by university events pretty quickly), but at least I'll be trying to get staffers to any LI tournament that needs them.

NEW YORK CITY
Hunter - This is the first time in a while that Hunter's had a large number of people graduate. I think they'll still be a strong team, just maybe not national top 5 material like last year.
TriBeCa - Bernard Stanford's pretty good, but I don't know about their other members.
other teams - I'm guessing we're going to at least see Bronx Science go to tournaments again, but that's about it.

WESTCHESTER
Irvington - They could very well be the best team in Westchester this year due to Alec.
Ardsley - I don't know what's going to happen here since Ryan's gonna be gone (not to mention the rest of their A team).
White Plains - Takes a huge hit. Still primarily a team.
other teams - Presumably they exist and will do things. I'm not exactly the guy to be talking about this region.

NASSAU
Kellenberg - They still have Joe Levano (and Mark?), so they're in good shape.
Great Neck South - Will probably have another good team again due to their deep bench last year (after all, they brought six teams to Hills West).
Valley Stream South - Another school with a deep bench, though at least they're carrying over an A team member in the form of Michael Yang.
Great Neck North - Should be close to Great Neck South's level if they actually attend more tournaments.
other teams - Again, they probably exist and will go to things. Where is Syosset?

SUFFOLK
Kings Park - Joe and Mike return, so they very well might have their best team to date.
North Babylon - Brian and Max return, so they're also going to be really good. I don't know who's going to be better, KP or NB.
Hills West - Pretty sure it's mostly going to be Arthur at this point.
Port Jefferson - Zach got teams to a few tournaments at the end of last year, so I'm betting we'll be seeing them more often.
Smithtown East/West - Okay, these teams need an intervention. There is no reason for their only NAQT tournament last year to be this.
other teams - Hills East may go to things, St. Anthony's will still exist.

THE [email protected]!! - Every single team I listed in the Suffolk section is going to be on The Challenge this year. That could actually be exciting to watch... but it's The Challenge, so it probably won't be. Nassau and Westchester aren't so "lucky".

OTHER PLACES - Well, there's MasterMinds. And whoever goes to Cornell's tournaments. I don't have much else to say.

[Scaled Flowerpiercer]

Ok, I will lend my own analysis of what things will be like, building off of Robert's post because I agree with most things there

Well, it's another year. Things are looking a bit more promising this year in terms of activity (as far as the Metro area goes) with Scarsdale already locking in two NAQT tournaments and Great Neck South possibly hosting something, in addition to LIFT, KPAQT, and (most likely) the Hills West Invitational.

not to mention NHBB White Plains, NHBB Long Island, the fact that Irvington wants to host something pyramidal, and stuff in New Jersey and New England...there will be a very full schedule

NEW YORK CITY
Hunter- yeah, they will still be very good though I think less so than last year.
"TriBeCa" - I think they may be very good next year, Bernard is good, and I don't think they are really losing anyone, and retaining members like a freshman(Alex Oltarsh) who was in the top 5 of Princeton's NHBBee in the Varsity Division.
other teams - they will still probably slowly trickle in...Bronx Science was nice to see playing, and a couple of teams (Cardinal Spellman and I think something else) went to White Plains' WACKO tournaments...who knows if they will go to other things

WESTCHESTER
Irvington - I think Alec will be able to bring the team to a pretty good year next year. A lot of the rest of the team may not be great depending on whether they decide to try or not, but Alec will continue studying and being good. The team will take a hit from me leaving, but I think they will recover, as Alec backed by Aidan (who can convert almost all non-sports trash and dinosaur questions), Szetong (who powers random questions and may start studying) and someone else from the team could be pretty good. Also, I would say there is at least a decent chance they go to HSNCT instead of NAC. Alec seems on board with it, and somehow even though the other hundred arguments didn't work, "HSNCT has trash side events" made everyone on the team wish they had gone, and if Irvington does host something pyramidal next year, that will help fund the more expensive (in terms of travel costs) HSNCT.
Ardsley - They are going to take a huge hit from last year as all their best players are Seniors. Though on another note, I don't think they signed up for either of the two Westchester leagues for next year.
White Plains - They lose all their best members, though its hard to tell whether that will actually affect them. Their B team was pretty good this year despite the fact that I think it was four seniors who had never played quizbowl before. But they will probably go to nothing other than LIFT, HHH, and Chip.
Scarsdale - They were pretty good this year, and they are definitely gung-ho about going to pyramidal stuff (while they will still probably go to local Chip things too) They lose a lot of seniors, but they are returning a number of members, they will be pretty good next year.
Hastings - They will be pretty good, but they will probably only play Chip. I don't know as much about exactly who they return, they will probably be weaker than Scarsdale though.
Horace Greeley - They return Max Smiley, who did really well at JV NHBBee, their team has potential to be pretty good next year with Max and some back up. But its always up in the air as to whether they go to more than one or two tournaments outside of Westchester
other teams - Briarcliff, Fox Lane, Edgemont, Eastchester, New Rochelle, and I think others I am forgetting about...They will probably go to 0 pyramidal tournaments, though we can see if hosting 2-3 in Westchester causes them to shift. Some of these teams may be good if they play things.

NASSAU
Kellenberg - They still have Joe Levano and Mark, so they will be getting better next year
Great Neck South - They take a pretty huge hit from their leaving group of Seniors, but they will probably recover and not be too much worse
other teams - I don't know

SUFFOLK
Kings Park - Seems like they will be getting better
North Babylon - As Brian and Max return, I think they will be pretty good next year as they continue to improve.
Hills West - They have a lot of people, but other than Arthur it doesn't seem like they will be too good
Port Jefferson - Zach is pretty good, though he seems to be in desperate need of other people. If he gets them the team could be pretty good, but alone Zach is still good
Smithtown East/West - Okay, these teams need an intervention. To add to what Robert said, they went to NAC this year (or at least West did, I am not sure if East did)
other teams - I don't know

THE [email protected]!! - Yeah, its pretty bad quizbowl, but if people reach out to the teams here to come to real tournaments, that could help a lot. And almost none of the top Westchester teams are going to be here this next year, though it sounds like Suffolk might have a sort of legitimate field.

OTHER PLACES - Apparently Ithaca was not terrible last year...but yeah, I don't know much about those other regions of the state, and it seems like they tend to be generally weak.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

I'm a bit bummed that Stony Brook can't add anything to the schedule (there is VERY little available space on campus during weekends and it gets taken up by university events pretty quickly), but at least I'll be trying to get staffers to any LI tournament that needs them.

Are there any high schools in your area that don't already host something where you are on good enough terms with the coach that you could work out a deal to get them to give you rooms while you bring your team in to actually run the tournament, and you let their teams play for free or something like that? That has worked for some other college teams in the past who couldn't get the space on campus to run a tournament.

[Lightly Seared on the Reality Grill]

The one school I could say that about is already running a tournament, and I believe they would've had to lock it in by now anyway.

[ProfessorIanDuncan]

NEW YORK CITY

Having played Hunter B at RSI, Hunter is still the team to beat in New York this year, but the graduations have impacted them. Even Hunter B will be a good team this year,the depth of the teams was so deep last year that there shouldn't be any problem. However, I shudder to think what the trash will be at Prison Bowl this year.
Stuy was one of the top teams in the area last year and, to my knowledge, don't lose anyone. Bernard is really good, maybe even the best player in the area outside of Hunter, and he's got some good support in Alex and Lavinia (don't know if she graduates). Overall, they'll probably finish near the top at most tournaments and be really tough to face.
Bronx Sci didn't impress me last year, but if they work hard and go to tournaments, they can get good.

WESTCHESTER

Irvington halves their PPB because Sam is gone, not to mention all Fine Arts and Math knowledge is lost. Szetong and Eddie, who were freshmen this year should help improve the science knowledge in things like Bio and Chem but the more complicated fields will be leave a gap. As Sam said, it all depends on who steps up, and if the rising Juniors do so in a big way, then Irvington will have a good team with some depth. Also I'm really not as good as some of you people may think. Overall, we'll probably beat most average teams but falter when it comes to playing the better ones.
Ardsley is going to be interesting. Martin and Callie, siblings of Adam and Ryan respectively, look to be the major driving forces in the team. I think this year will be a transition year, one which decides where the program is headed for years to come as they look to make the permanent push away from
White Plains loses their entire A and B teams but their C team was good this year and will continue to put up numbers this year. White Plains also has the ability to pull out quality players out of nowhere. Now if only they would come to tournaments.
Scarsdale hosted the first pyramidal tournament in Westchester, which shows initiative to moving towards pyramidal. On top of that, they have a numerous selection of players to chose from and an effective structure. Cindy Du is probably their best player and she seems quite capable at Lit and Fine Arts, and she looks to have some solid support. Overall, probably the #2 team in Westchester, and they can beat a good number teams if they play well.
Horace Greeley loses one player who seemed to make less and less of an impact as the year went on. Max Smiley and Kate Rosenberg are both rising juniors and very promising and can probably be convinced to move away from depending on how much influence their coaches have. There is decent depth and any combination of players could fill out the A team. This is the best team in Westchester IMO and will end up beating most Long Island teams at tournaments like HHH.
Hastings returns Chris from the A team I believe. He's a good player, one of the best in the county. If he plays well he team will win. I have no idea who the supporting cast is but they'll be decent as always.

NASSAU

Kellenberg:Joe Levano continues to impress me and with Mark they should be able to beat most teams. However, they sometimes seem to talk each other out of bonuses and have a bit of a negging problem. Once these are fixed however, they'll be really good. They can rival beat every team in the area except maybe Hunter A. And of course they look amazing in their suits.
GNS looks like a deep team and I know for certain Cyrus is staying, and he's a quality player. If they remain as good at science as they were last year, combined with Cyrus' history and humanities knowledge should make them a worthy team just a notch below Kellenberg.

SUFFOLK

Kings Park is going to be good team with Joe and Mike, but losing Shannon is going to hurt them. She seemed to give the team a more dominating appearance whereas Mike and Joe sem quieter. Still will be an impressive team.
North Babylon with Max and Brian will continue to get better but it will take some work to get to the level they were two years ago. Brian seems to know music and he is an all around good generalist.
Hills West will be led by Arthur and seems to be a transition year after the departure of George. THe success of the team depends on a) Arthur's leadership and skill and b) the teams rebounding from the loss of the main players.
Port Jeff is basically Zach Graziano. He is as good as Brian except he has less support. Its up to him to get the support he needs through recruitment and training. Port Jeff should be able to beat most average teams an dmake playoffs but will not likely make it past the first round unless Zach has more support.

OTHER PLACES

The top 3 or 4 teams in MasterMinds could certainly play a close game to the top teams here, but it would be a tough call to say who wins.

One final thing. The Challenge for Westchester is going to suck. There are notable emissions and the title is illegitimate (well unlike last year because WP and Ardsley were the best teams and their performance reflected that)

[ryanrosenberg]

I'll attempt some sort of ranking system, although NY as a whole seems fairly hard to predict this year with so many good players graduating.

1. Hunter A--Clearly the best team in the region, the question is how much they will be able to retain their status as a nationally competitive team. While they lose 3/4 of their A team and half of their B team, they do return some solid pieces. Zihan is a very strong history player with generalist capabilities, and he alone should make Hunter a contender at local tournaments and NHBB. Marianna is a lit/RMP specialist who has shown a desire to improve and should be able to complement Zihan well, and some combination of Willie Ha/William Dou/Wilton Rao will shore up Hunter's science knowledge. Writing Prison Bowl again won't hurt either. I think that this team will be able to mesh and improve together (especially if Zihan decides to go to tournaments) and come up with top-15 finishes at both nationals, with a top-5 finish at NHBB in there too.

2. Kellenberg--Returning their top two scorers from their 6-4 HSNCT team, they have plenty of room to grow. Joe and Mark will combine for some nice local finishes, and they have the potential to make noise on Sunday at HSNCT, given that they'll play a solid regular season schedule. Seeing them at some non-NAQT tournaments would be nice.

3. Great Neck South--They return Cyrus, who can score points when he's not demanding piggyback rides from everyone he meets, plus some supporting members. Placed here based on going to a lot of tournaments and having a deep program.

4. Hunter B--Possibly over-ranked, but there's a culture of success and improvement at the school which will hopefully inspire the young ones. Sarah Hamerling and Alex Moschetti put up decent numbers on Hunter C this year, and combined with whichever one of the Wils not on Hunter A will have some good tournaments.

5. Horace Greeley--Placed here based on potential; it's unlikely that they go to more than two or three non-Chip events, but they will place highly at HHHW, LIFT, and if they go to Scarsdale. They return Max and Kate, who are both rising juniors, so if they can be convinced to go to more good tournaments, they could be the best team in the region next year.

Others:
Tribeca--A little too inconsistent for me to rank higher, but Bernard and Alex will each put up good PPGs this year. Another supporting player stepping up or Alex improving would give them the edge over GNS/Hunter B.

Irvington--If the team doesn't fall apart due to the loss of Sam, they could shoot up this list. Aidan, Szetong, Adrian, and Dillon all could get serious and study to give Alec the help he needs, but if they persist in preferring Chip and trash to actual academic tournaments, they'll languish in a not-really-seriously-contending state.

North Babylon/Port Jefferson--Two Long Island teams led by strong players (Brian and Zach) who would benefit from going to more tournaments off of LI. Zach moderated at Prison Bowl this year, which was nice to see. If either or both of them commits to putting in serious work to studying (or one of their teammates does), they could easily grab games off of the top teams here.

Scarsdale--Large, enthusiastic team that may suffer from the curse of over-commitment. They have talent, but it doesn't necessarily seem like anyone on the team is super-motivated to good quiz bowl specifically. Hosting two NAQT tournaments in Westchester is a great thing, though.

Ardsley--We lose our entire A team and some of our B team, plus possibly our coach. Not shockingly, this will be a rebuilding year, but the team looks to be rebuilt on a much more solid foundation than it was before. We'll be a very young team next year and just try to go to as many good tournaments as possible to gain experience, hopefully being able to make a nice rebound next year. I'll of course be helping out as much as possible.

edit: woo forgot my own school.

[gnshsqb]

I feel like New York in general, especially Long Island (which I obviously know better than the other regions), lost a lot of strength from graduating seniors.

It seems to me that Kellenberg gains a lot of strength, as Joe/Gabe were young and neg-prone but now seem to be more experienced, but it's one of the only ones to improve. GNN is improving and will do decently if they go to tournaments, though they too lose one or two of their stronger players this year.

I have to say that GNS loses a good deal of strength--we have Cyrus (by the way, I feel like I'm obligated to once again [/a] apologize to anyone (I'm looking at you, Ryan) from whom he's demanded a piggyback ride. The other problem is that we lost our coach this year, and I don't know how experienced next year's coach is, so make of that what you will . There's plenty of support for our A team in history/RMP, though; science will be the issue, I think.

I don't know North Babylon that well, but Port Jeff and HHHW seem strong with Zach and Arthur, though they definitely need support; HHHW was always a strong history team and just seems to need to shore up their science a bit (though they did well at the Brookhaven science bowl last year, whatever good that's worth). I'm curious to see whether WM emerges strongly next year--I feel like this is mentioned every year but I wonder if this'll be the year they finally return.

In Westchester, I think Irvington's something of a favorite despite the loss of Sam, but I distinctly remember Ardsley B having some promising underclassmen, including one geo/history specialist whose name I forget. Scarsdale seems to be a wildcard, seeing as they seem enthusiastic and pretty good, but I haven't actually seen them at any tournaments.


Also, does anyone know if HHHW is splitting up their divisions in their January tournament after what happened last year (i.e., people saying they should split into premier/main)??

[czheng0708]

I don't know if Science will be GNS's biggest issue, it just won't be as strong as it was this year. I think our science abilities are okay (as long as Cyrus stops negging on easier science questions).

[Ithaca Cricket Ump]

Sam wrote:

OTHER PLACES - Apparently Ithaca was not terrible last year...but yeah, I don't know much about those other regions of the state, and it seems like they tend to be generally weak.

Upstate is quite weak, honestly. Ithaca and Horseheads were the two upstate teams that I know of from last year that could've played at HSNCT and not gotten embarrassed. (Actually, I think both would have had a shot at being low-level, i.e. 6-4, playoff teams.) Ithaca chose to play NAC for a variety of reasons, underachieved quite a bit and hated the questions, and I think will be a NAQT-only team for the foreseeable future. Horseheads wanted to attend HSNCT, but were prevented from doing so by their skinflint school board. Ithaca will be as good or better this year, as they return their best player, Irit Huq-Kuruvilla, who is also probably the best returning quizbowl player in the region, 80% of their total scoring, and had a pretty strong B team led by Jensen Lo. Horseheads will not, as to my best knowledge they will be entirely dependent on one good, but not great, player. Cooperstown might be decent, as might Binghamton Seton Catholic, which was the only school to qualify two teams for the playoffs of the main tournament in the region. Maybe in my recruiting of new quizbowl teams in upstate this year I'll find a diamond in the rough or two, and every now and then one of the Elmira or northern Pennsylvania schools in the Twin Tiers Quiz League has a formidable team, but I'm not betting my firstborn on it. MasterMinds teams I would guess can be safely written off, as even the better teams in that competition struggle to reach 300 points in a game on NAQT A-set questions. My guess is that it's going to be three to five years before any team other than Ithaca (or a one-year wonder) from the "true" upstate region can hang regularly with the downstate teams or make any real noise at a national tournament.

--Scott

[biggiebird89]

In terms of the Adirondack portion of the "upstate" New York region, it's almost not even worth mentioning. Those teams outside of the Capital Region who don't do Masterminds, some of them participate in a QB league sponsored by a local newspaper. Essentially teams from about 25 schools meet at one central school every other week for 5-6 weeks in the Fall/early winter and hold "matches" vs. other schools. Matches are 4 quarter format: tossups, TU with bonuses, 60 second round, and more tossups, where tossups are basically fact-check, one-line kind of questions. Standings are done by total points, where top 8 teams do a single-elimination tournament after the season. Top 2 teams go on to "nationals" later on (though I never quite found out specifically where this was). Honestly, 6 years of this for me seemed wonderful, but in hindsight, there's no possible way you could try to represent QB any worse, in my opinion. There are SOME schools around here who make the drive over to Vermont to play in the PHAT/SPOT tournaments run by K. Commo and game in the Vermont league, but aside from that, there's not much else.

My goal this fall is to run a novice tournament at my old HS as a fundraiser/introduction to "good quiz bowl" for most of the region. I would like the upstate (meaning Adirondacks/northern Capital Region) to start getting into better quiz bowl habits aside from these one-liner events that insult everyone's intelligence, and if running a simple novice-style tournament is the way to start, then hopefully this can become a reoccurring concept and potentially start a change in the QB tendencies of this area. /endrant

[Lightly Seared on the Reality Grill]

Top 2 teams go on to "nationals" later on (though I never quite found out specifically where this was).

Queensbury went to nationals last year. I'm not sure what the other team is.

[ProfessorIanDuncan]

MasterMinds teams I would guess can be safely written off, as even the better teams in that competition struggle to reach 300 points in a game on NAQT A-set questions.

Do they play with different rules that lead to lower scoring games? I can't believe that the teams are weaker than some Westchester and Long Island teams. And the winner of the Bull Bowl in Buffalo put up similar numbers to us on an IS set. Also Bethlehem put up 300 ppg for Masterminds over the course of the year.

On the same IS set, Ithaca put up a higher ppg but a lower ppb than Irvington, but because we lose Sam the ppb will drop this year, so I guess Ithaca looks more promising than Irvington next year. That said Kellenberg went up to Cornell for a tournament and, though they were beaten by Horseheads, managed to win the oturnament with 445 ppg and 21 ppb on an A set.

Note: this is just me browsing the NAQT website, I have no idea how these teams do at other tournaments.

[biggiebird89]

Queensbury went to nationals last year. I'm not sure what the other team is.

I don't know either, honestly, and considering everytime I see that face, it's always used in a negative connotation, I'll take it this wasn't a good thing (I'm not totally familiar with everything on the boards, I'll admit.) Queensbury is probably one of the only schools in the area who DOES participate in other tournaments, like the Vermont tourneys, etc. My HS went to the PHAT back in 2007 and did...marginally well, I suppose, but the transition from one-line questions to pyramidal style is definitely an adjustment, I'd assume. Hopefully running a novice tournament in this area would be a good addition to the region, but it'd be better to see just BETTER quiz-bowl habits developed aside from Masterminds and one-liner leagues, etc. It'd be nice if NY was recognized for QB aside from just the city area.

[ProfessorIanDuncan]

Queensbury went to nationals last year

Looks like they did OK. 3-3 with losses to two of the best teams at New Orleans.

It'd be nice if NY was recognized for QB aside from just the city area

No one recognizes NY asides from Hunter in places that are 100+miles away.

[Scaled Flowerpiercer]

MasterMinds teams I would guess can be safely written off, as even the better teams in that competition struggle to reach 300 points in a game on NAQT A-set questions.

Do they play with different rules that lead to lower scoring games? I can't believe that the teams are weaker than some Westchester and Long Island teams. And the winner of the Bull Bowl in Buffalo put up similar numbers to us on an IS set. Also Bethlehem put up 300 ppg for Masterminds over the course of the year.

On the same IS set, Ithaca put up a higher ppg but a lower ppb than Irvington, but because we lose Sam the ppb will drop this year, so I guess Ithaca looks more promising than Irvington next year. That said Kellenberg went up to Cornell for a tournament and, though they were beaten by Horseheads, managed to win the oturnament with 445 ppg and 21 ppb on an A set.

Note: this is just me browsing the NAQT website, I have no idea how these teams do at other tournaments.

Alec: first, stop insulting the weakness of Irvington, its not like I was scoring 90% of the teams points, if you/other people put in work the team can be ok next year.

But just in general, comparing stats isn't a great way to compare teams especially in terms of ppg - A weaker field (like upstate new york) will allow a team to score more points by merit of the fact that the other team isn't buzzing as much, ppb is less vulnerable to such variation.

I don't know either, honestly, and considering everytime I see that face, it's always used in a negative connotation, I'll take it this wasn't a good thing (I'm not totally familiar with everything on the boards, I'll admit.

Some reasons for the negative connotation: http://www.qbwiki.com/wiki/Criticisms_of_the_NAC

[Lightly Seared on the Reality Grill]

Queensbury went to nationals last year. I'm not sure what the other team is.

I don't know either, honestly, and considering everytime I see that face, it's always used in a negative connotation, I'll take it this wasn't a good thing (I'm not totally familiar with everything on the boards, I'll admit.)

Yeah, it isn't. See Sam's post above.
Also, it appears the other school (and winner of the Post Star whatever thing last year) was Saratoga Springs which DOES do MasterMinds, although naturally they lost to Bethlehem in the Albany playoffs.

[biggiebird89]

That'd be the Post Star Academic Bowl (PSAB) - the league I was talking about earlier, and yeah, having read the "Criticisms" page in its entirety, that really sounds like PSAB to the letter - speed check questions, more trivia than academia, and the part about the 60 second round I completely agree with. It's a load of crap, honestly. WHY we still do this in this area, I have no idea, but it's probably a cost-saving matter or something. Sacrificing at the cost of quality of play is never a good idea obviously. Queensbury (which IS the host school where all matches are played) has always been a pack-leader in the PSAB league, along with varying teams per year (CBA, Saratoga Springs, etc.) Masterminds generally cuts off, geographically, around the Saratoga area, 'cause no other teams up this way do it, and I don't blame them for not if they had a chance to.

If this league could change into more of a NAQT-style league (or at least use better, pyramidal questions), there could easily be a turnaround, and you might see SOME (in time) stronger teams come out of the upstate region, but we'll never know unless someone's willing to take that chance, and I don't see it happening anytime soon.

[Important Bird Area]

In terms of the Adirondack portion of the "upstate" New York region

Note that the other (northwest) side of the Adirondacks has a regular NAQT tournament (this one), whose champions sometimes attend HSNCT.

[biggiebird89]

In terms of the Adirondack portion of the "upstate" New York region

Note that the other (northwest) side of the Adirondacks has a regular NAQT tournament (this one), whose champions sometimes attend HSNCT.

Jeff - have a location for where this tournament went on? I guess speaking for an entire region without checking the facts first doesn't always work out.

[Important Bird Area]

This school is the host.

[Lightly Seared on the Reality Grill]

WHY we still do this in this area, I have no idea, but it's probably a cost-saving matter or something.

Long Island has a league that is more or less exactly the same as this Post Star league you're describing- rounds after school, 4 quarters, speed check questions (it gets even worse: almost every lit question is an "identify the quote", and there are more than a few list and trick questions), etc.- but the issue certainly isn't cost. It effectively costs over $30 per guaranteed game to play, and then you have to pay AGAIN if you get into playoffs. Some of my college teammates who used to compete in it said they liked it because it was a "tradition" for their team, and I have a feeling that's going to be a reason for a lot of other teams. I bet it also has a lot to do with how little commitment is necessary to play along- just one hour-long meet after school every month for five months (although one school in what would be my school's region couldn't even manage that last year and forfeited three games), with the playoffs also held after school on some day in April. I'm not entirely sure how to work around the league in my area since all of the top teams have yet to abandon it (Kings Park being the sole exception- we tried it for two years and hated it both times).

[biggiebird89]

It's definitely a possibility. I don't know the cost involved with the PSAB up here - it's free for the kids, I assume the teachers/school have to pay a small fee (which involves a daily subscription to the paper, etc), but it's essentially the same format. We used to meet at Queensbury School every Wednesday at 6pm every other week for 5 weeks or so for these matches (1 match per date). Speed check BS questions, more trivia-style than academic, it's just a nightmare. Granted when you're involved in it, it seems like such a great idea. BUT, I look at Vermont for a model of how a successful league is run - regional playoffs in the fall, an opening and holiday tournament, then playoffs in the spring, etc. Even if regionally, a model like this could do WONDERS for a region of speed-check, one-line QB play and would at least guarantee other opportunities to play similar events, etc.

[Ithaca Cricket Ump]

In terms of the Adirondack portion of the "upstate" New York region

Note that the other (northwest) side of the Adirondacks has a regular NAQT tournament (this one), whose champions sometimes attend HSNCT.

Colton-Pierrepont qualified for, and were listed to attend until withdrawing in the last few days leading up to the tournament, the 2012 NAQT HSNCT. After their withdrawal, upstate New York's (again, I count the Westchester schools as NYC metro and not upstate even though geographically, they're technically the latter) sole representative in Atlanta this year was me, as a moderator. Jeff Hoppes and I briefly discussed them while putting together team folders on Friday evening at the Hyatt, and having heard of the school before (since my dad is a SUNY-Potsdam Crane School of Music alum), I asked if they would have been the smallest school to ever compete at the HSNCT, with 79 total students in grades 10-12 and total K-12 enrollment of 304. He said that they wouldn't have been (I forget what school he mentioned to me that was smaller), but that they would've definitely been on the shortlist.

--Scott

[Ithaca Cricket Ump]

There is a long-running quizbowl league based in the area of Elmira, New York, called the Twin Tiers Quiz League that I was quite pleasantly surprised to see was still running when I got back into quizbowl last year, and will be entering its 25th year of competition this fall. (I captained Elmira Heights, the very first TTQL championship team, in 1988, which was my final year playing quizbowl in high school. Apparently they have not entered a team in the competition since 1989.)

http://ttquiz.webs.com/

When the league was organized in 1989, it adopted the ASCN Tournament of Champions four-quarter format, since three of the charter members (Elmira Heights, Horseheads and Elmira Free Academy) had played in the 1988 edition of that tournament in Lake Forest. Taking a closer look at the website now, I see that they're still using that format, relatively unchanged from 1988. I don't know what their question source is (I think they might have used Patrick Press or QU or something along those lines in 1988 but I don't recall specifically), but I'm pretty certain that it's not either NAQT (since they're not listed as a customer) or a housewrite, and I'd be surprised if it was HSAPQ. I'll be moderating some games for them this year since most of my family still lives in the Elmira area and it's a good chance to take the kids to see Grammy and Grampy ;), so I guess I'll be finding out in a couple of months. I'm not expecting much, question-wise. Although it isn't listed on the website, Horseheads also won the league in 2011, their 11th title in 24 seasons of competition. (Their dominance is partly explained by the fact that they're one of the best local schools academically, and partly by the fact that Ithaca has never taken part.) The competing schools would probably be amenable to participation at things like Bull Bowl or Garrett's proposed Adirondack-area tournaments (their number one objection is going to be the expense, since this area has a much-larger-than-normal percentage of schools on austerity or tight budgets, and it's the sort of area where sports is always going to be the top priority for any extra $$$ lying around), and I'm going to make a concerted effort to at least get them all to come to Cornell's tournaments this year.

--Scott

[ProfessorIanDuncan]

though geographically, they're technically the latter

False.I do not accept this statement as fact. Anyway, Ardsley was the first Westchester team to go to HSNCT in years (I assume).

[Ithaca Cricket Ump]

That'd be the Post Star Academic Bowl (PSAB) - the league I was talking about earlier, and yeah, having read the "Criticisms" page in its entirety, that really sounds like PSAB to the letter - speed check questions, more trivia than academia, and the part about the 60 second round I completely agree with. It's a load of crap, honestly. WHY we still do this in this area, I have no idea, but it's probably a cost-saving matter or something. Sacrificing at the cost of quality of play is never a good idea obviously. Queensbury (which IS the host school where all matches are played) has always been a pack-leader in the PSAB league, along with varying teams per year (CBA, Saratoga Springs, etc.) Masterminds generally cuts off, geographically, around the Saratoga area, 'cause no other teams up this way do it, and I don't blame them for not if they had a chance to.

If this league could change into more of a NAQT-style league (or at least use better, pyramidal questions), there could easily be a turnaround, and you might see SOME (in time) stronger teams come out of the upstate region, but we'll never know unless someone's willing to take that chance, and I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Garrett:

The tournaments that Brooks Sanders and I run in the Finger Lakes region are making moves in the direction of better quizbowl. We operate under the name Brainbusters Tournament Questions, although after I take over in 2013-14 for Brooks, who's retiring, I'm farming 95% of the question writing out to NAQT and HSAPQ and concentrating more on tournament organization, direction, and moderation. However, Brooks, who is a longtime NAC and staffer (I also moderated at one site of NAC this year, the reasons for which can be found by searching through my 12 or so previous posts ), is still in charge for this year, and wants to keep the question writing for our tournaments (all of which will take place after Christmas, unfortunately, since he's not available during the first semester this year) "in-house", which will mean that the question writing will quite frankly not be up to the standards of the modern game. I will do my best to edit the questions (Brooks is the main writer) to approximately mirror the pyramidality and quality of a NAQT A-set, modified to the four-quarter format that our current teams overwhelmingly want to retain for this year, but quite frankly I am an inexperienced writer and editor and have five young adopted children to boot, so I'm just looking (realistically) to turn out something acceptable and fair that will at the very least test knowledge and not hose anybody. We will be running tournaments in northeast Pennsylvania (Scranton area), Oneonta-Catskills (that one is sponsored by the local cooperative education board so it's unfortunately limited to schools that are members of that board) - both in January, our flagship tournament at Tompkins-Cortland Community College in March, a trash tournament in February, a novice-level (by national standards) housewritten academic tournament in late March-early April although there is a chance we might move that to late September, a Finger Lakes region NHBB qualifier (date TBD), and possibly a New York state NASAT qualifier (which I would imagine would be my baby, rather than Brooks', and will probably be done in conjunction with Cornell's AQO if they're amenable to the idea). If we have enough interest, we may also hold what would be this area's first-ever middle school quizbowl tournament but that may be something that'll have to wait for 2013-14. Any interested teams in your region are welcome to compete in any of these tournaments with the exception of Oneonta, but because of the uncertain question quality situation it would be a caveat emptor situation for this year, with the exception of the NHBB and NASAT tournaments. Next year, with NAQT and HSAPQ supplying the questions, the product will be of much higher quality. I CAN assure you that the tournaments will be enjoyable and that I will personally ensure that any patently unfair or horrible questions that come across my desk will be discarded or heavily edited to remove their flaws, but I'm not going to sit here and lie to you and let you think it's going to be Prison Bowl or ATTACK, either. At least not until I'm calling all the shots. ;) Cornell I'm sure would also be delighted to have teams from your area at their fall and spring NAQT tournaments.

MasterMinds is not active in our area, either. Exactly one school that competed in any of our tournaments last year participated in MasterMinds, Southern Cayuga. There is a Binghamton league listed on their website, but no schools are listed for that league and it seems to be dormant. If they were to combine Elmira, Ithaca and Binghamton into one or two leagues and were interested in expanding down here, they could probably get a decent competition going, but they seem to have not had a lot of interest in doing that, yet.

--Scott

[Ithaca Cricket Ump]

though geographically, they're technically the latter

False.I do not accept this statement as fact. Anyway, Ardsley was the first Westchester team to go to HSNCT in years (I assume).

When I lived in NYC, most people I knew considered Yonkers "part of the city", but would call the rest of the county "upstate". In fact, anything in New York State that was not one of the five boroughs, Yonkers, or Nassau or Suffolk Counties was called "upstate". I suppose it depends on who you ask. People up in this region would chiefly consider Westchester as close enough to NYC to be considered "NYC metro", but most of the people I knew in the city considered it part of upstate.

--Scott

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upstate_New_York

[biggiebird89]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upstate_New_York

Meh, really I think the point is debatable. I've lived in the southern Adirondacks going on all 23 years of my life now and have always considered anything north of Albany (along I-87) as "upstate", anything south of Albany as "downstate", and then the city is its own entity. Obviously the term is more-or-less an opinion than anything else, at least I feel. I have friends who live in Queens/Staten Island who say anything north of Westchester County is "upstate" so I guess it's more about where you live (especially if you're a NY native like myself).

Scott - as to your point, that sounds like a great idea what you're proposing out in your area. I think ANY schools who can get adjusted from a 4-quarter format to something along the lines of NAQT or PACE or HSNCT would be in a better position to see more successful growth of QB play. Of course I'm just speaking based on the successes of other regions, so I may be more wishful thinking than anything else. I'm not a coach, advisor, manager, etc, of any team or any league. I played 6 years of QB in HS, have run 2 tournaments, but just have enough of a passion for the game that I'd like to see something like this advanced in my area aside from the bland 4-quarter format. I'm trying very hard to get a novice tournament at my HS in November because I think this area could benefit from having a tournament like this run for teams to compete on. Honestly, I don't see why something like this across NYS couldn't be achieved (minus LI). Have geographical regions (capital region, eastern/western ADKs, finger lakes, SC NY, western NY), so on - do regional play with a couple tournaments in the middle, then do playoffs, and send like the top 4-5 teams to an NAQT "Upstate New York" Championships. Mind you, I'm doing a LOT of wishful thinking with this, but I think anything (especially in QB) is possible - plus it's all about the kids, that's what matters most.

[Important Bird Area]

I asked if they would have been the smallest school to ever compete at the HSNCT, with 79 total students in grades 10-12 and total K-12 enrollment of 304. He said that they wouldn't have been (I forget what school he mentioned to me that was smaller), but that they would've definitely been on the shortlist.

Mound City (Missouri), which went 4-6 (+2-1 in the small-school playoffs) at the 2012 HSNCT, has a listed enrollment of 89 students 9-12.

[Scaled Flowerpiercer]

Regarding the "Upstate New York," for practical purposes, I have found that the "upstate" line moves father north as you move farther upstate. To people in Westchester, I think we tend to define it as Albany-ish. However, I think that for the current quizbowl conversation at hand, it will be useful if we all agree that Upstate New York is that part of New York above Westchester, Long Island, and the City, as the last three are very close to eah other and play in each others quizbowl tournaments and rarely go any more northward, and the rest of the state does their own things.

[biggiebird89]

I think that for the current quizbowl conversation at hand, it will be useful if we all agree that Upstate New York is that part of New York above Westchester, Long Island, and the City, as the last three are very close to eah other and play in each others quizbowl tournaments and rarely go any more northward, and the rest of the state does their own things.

That works for me.

[David Riley]

Not to nitpick (though we have this same argument relative to Illinois all the time), friends of mine in Brewster (Putnam Co.) consider themselves as downstate. Oddly enough, one is from Manhattan and the other is from western Pennsylvania.

On a more serious note: the idea of regional championships or similar is good. When we started having multiple sites for our Kickoff tournament across the state and began to use NAQT questions, we had many more converts to good quiz bowl.

[ryanrosenberg]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upstate_New_York

Meh, really I think the point is debatable. I've lived in the southern Adirondacks going on all 23 years of my life now and have always considered anything north of Albany (along I-87) as "upstate", anything south of Albany as "downstate", and then the city is its own entity. Obviously the term is more-or-less an opinion than anything else, at least I feel. I have friends who live in Queens/Staten Island who say anything north of Westchester County is "upstate" so I guess it's more about where you live (especially if you're a NY native like myself).

I like the suburbs/exurbs definition myself.

Scott - as to your point, that sounds like a great idea what you're proposing out in your area. I think ANY schools who can get adjusted from a 4-quarter format to something along the lines of NAQT or PACE or HSNCT would be in a better position to see more successful growth of QB play. Of course I'm just speaking based on the successes of other regions, so I may be more wishful thinking than anything else. I'm not a coach, advisor, manager, etc, of any team or any league. I played 6 years of QB in HS, have run 2 tournaments, but just have enough of a passion for the game that I'd like to see something like this advanced in my area aside from the bland 4-quarter format. I'm trying very hard to get a novice tournament at my HS in November because I think this area could benefit from having a tournament like this run for teams to compete on. Honestly, I don't see why something like this across NYS couldn't be achieved (minus LI). Have geographical regions (capital region, eastern/western ADKs, finger lakes, SC NY, western NY), so on - do regional play with a couple tournaments in the middle, then do playoffs, and send like the top 4-5 teams to an NAQT "Upstate New York" Championships. Mind you, I'm doing a LOT of wishful thinking with this, but I think anything (especially in QB) is possible - plus it's all about the kids, that's what matters most.

I like this idea a lot. Following the Illinois Kickoffs/Turnabout model, where A-set and IS set tournament are run at different sites across the Upstate region, would be a very good way of exposing an underdeveloped (in terms of quizbowl) region to good quizbowl. An Upstate NYC championship, in turn, would unite previously disparate regions and hopefully provide the competition necessary to push the better teams upstate to improve.

[Important Bird Area]

I think ANY schools who can get adjusted from a 4-quarter format to something along the lines of NAQT or PACE

There's nothing really wrong with four-quarter format in and of itself (both NAQT and HSAPQ have produced questions for use in that format). The issue is that many tournaments using four-quarter format also use non-pyramidal tossups.

[biggiebird89]

The issue is that many tournaments using four-quarter format also use non-pyramidal tossups.

That could be one of the reasons why I dislike the 4Q format. I think the other is that it gives a feeling of being more trivia/game-show like in nature vs. an actual tournament or display of academic logic. Plus depending on 4Q formats are done (timed vs. untimed), you might not get much in the way of actual information out of the matches if the questions are non-pyramidal. Adding pyramidal questions to a 4Q format would make the games longer (albeit not by much, but still), and just seem out of place. 20/20 matches take 20-25 minutes on average and you can get multiple games in one evening/tournament. Or it could be based on what area teams are already accustomed to in their respective "leagues", etc.

[AKKOLADE]

Hey, it's the bizarro universe of the "four quarter is more fun" argument!

[biggiebird89]

Hey, it's the bizarro universe of the "four quarter is more fun" argument!

Yes, avoiding this argument/discussion because, from the sounds of ^, it's not exactly the topic to have a hearty debate about, the whole point of what's been said is - there has to be a stronger way of uniting the rest of New York state (minus the suburbs/city/LI area) into some form of highly competitive league/set of leagues that can compete with other teams at nationals a few years down the road.

[David Riley]

Whatever happened to Stuyvesant? They used to be fairly active.

[ryanrosenberg]

Whatever happened to Stuyvesant? They used to be fairly active.

They still are, they've just had to go underground a bit due to troubles with their administration.

[Ithaca Cricket Ump]

Hey, it's the bizarro universe of the "four quarter is more fun" argument!

Yes, avoiding this argument/discussion because, from the sounds of ^, it's not exactly the topic to have a hearty debate about, the whole point of what's been said is - there has to be a stronger way of uniting the rest of New York state (minus the suburbs/city/LI area) into some form of highly competitive league/set of leagues that can compete with other teams at nationals a few years down the road.

Garrett:

You've made some excellent points and suggestions in your posts in this thread, and I'm willing to work with you in the upcoming year and beyond to make this happen in our region and give any support I can. Contact me at scottblish at g mail dot com and we can discuss more specific plans. There's no real reason that, in a few years time, we can't have an upstate circuit that is comparable to what downstate has now, albeit less compact due to longer distances.

--Scott

[biggiebird89]

Absolutely. It'd be slightly difficult for me to have any sort of "authority" over something like this considering I'm still (somewhat) a college student and all.
Definite things that would need to be established in the future would be:

1.) Some form of a list of coach contacts for all coaches in the state (be it whatever league/program - like Masterminds, Twin Tiers, Post-Star, etc) so that emails/calls can be made, where changes can easily be made if coaches/schools are added/dropped.
2.) If something like this were to be done regionally, have some way to divide the upstate into equal geographical regions as possible. What are the boundaries based on? Counties? School districts? Etc.
3.) What formatting would be done for the year? One of the models I really like is neighboring VT's league - they run an NAQT tournament in September, do "regional playoffs" in November, do a "Pre-Holiday" NAQT tourney in December, then do playoffs in February based on teams that participate in the "regional playoffs" and so on, and this has been going on successfully since the '83-'84 school year. Mind you, they also do their "regional playoffs" and "final playoffs" on a "3-quarter format" which involves TU/Bs, 60 second, and TU rounds, timed

Something like this could very easily be done with one tournament in the fall (maybe a novice tournament in late Sept/early Oct.), do some form of "regular season" play over the fall semester between schools (that could still use some other format like a 4Q format, or even a monthly A-set tournament of some kind done state-wide within-regions), and then for the final tournaments in the Spring, there could be regional playoffs where the top group of teams (3-4-5-however many) from each "region" are invited to an "Upstate New York NAQT Tournament" like what Cornell does to determine a final champion for a year. Granted something like this would take some time to get organized, but if there was enough interest, I think there could definitely be a HUGE positive resulting from this over the course of the next few years.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

I think the cart is in front of the horse here - you need to establish contact with the teams first and just work to get them even remotely used to the idea of playing good quizbowl at invitationals and find out how many of those teams there are who are willing to play stuff. If you have, say, a year to plan AND you already have a large group of established, interested teams, it could be possible to establish some kind of regional championship event, but right now you neither have enough time, potential hosts, or interested teams to make something like that happen. On the other hand, you still have PLENTY of time to compile a big contact list, find a few places willing to run regular tournaments, and try running those to get a feel for how many of the teams on your contact list actually sign up and might be interested in running their own events in the future.

[David Riley]

What Charlie said.

And re your point #2: BE VERY CAREFUL of this if your state athletic association gets in any way involved. I guess I'm putting the cart before the horse, too, but how regions are defined is the bane of our existence here.

[ryanrosenberg]

I'd also like to agree with what Charlie said. Masterminds and possibly NHBB will have contact lists for schools, but it will take at least a year to cultivate relationships with schools to the point where you can think about setting up any sort of organization.

Also, I don't think NYSPHSAA (and you thought MSHSAA was unpronounceable) would be interested in regulating quiz bowl, given that to the best of my knowledge, they don't regulate any non-athletic activities in the state. However, if they do, watch out. Nothing good comes from being involved with the New York State bureaucracy, and I don't think that there has ever been a truly successful quiz bowl/athletic association partnership (with the possible exception of VA).

[biggiebird89]

I think the cart is in front of the horse here - you need to establish contact with the teams first and just work to get them even remotely used to the idea of playing good quizbowl at invitationals and find out how many of those teams there are who are willing to play stuff.

On the other hand, you still have PLENTY of time to compile a big contact list, find a few places willing to run regular tournaments, and try running those to get a feel for how many of the teams on your contact list actually sign up and might be interested in running their own events in the future.

Absolutely agreed. This was what I meant when I said, "Granted something like this would take some time to get organized..." There's NO chance in Hell of anything like this happening within at least a 2-3 year period minimum. Like I said before, I'm trying like Hell to get a novice tournament (SCOP mirror) going at my HS for November that a lot of local teams can participate at and, hopefully, this would be a good introduction to pyramidal questions and that style of QB.

What Charlie said.

And re your point #2: BE VERY CAREFUL of this if your state athletic association gets in any way involved. I guess I'm putting the cart before the horse, too, but how regions are defined is the bane of our existence here.

Is this a common component of states with QB leagues that the state athletic commission is involved in the process? I've lived in NY for 23 years, trust me, I've seen it all when it comes to the NY government (see: Eliot Spitzer). Masterminds I don't know much about because no teams from this far north in NY (and Saratoga's arguable since it's 30 minutes south of where I am) participate in it. North of Saratoga (borderline this area with the Post-Star bowl) has little to no participation other than a few appearances in the VT tournaments. Is it mandatory that a QB league has some sort of "official" representation, and can't just be run by a board of "directors" of different regions or something similar? I look at VT as an example of this (though it's obviously a much smaller state in comparison).

EDIT: If Masterminds seems to have leagues set up in Albany, Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse with state playoffs, etc, does this mean there's likely no way to have some kind of pyramidal-style tournament/leagues set up across the state that aren't as game show/trivia in formatting as this?

[bmanzo44]

Since I'm a little late to the party, I'll be brief. First off, I'd like to generally agree with what people have been saying about our region in terms of what teams will be competitive. I think this has the potential to be a great year for quiz bowl in the NY area. Our team will certainly be coming back at full force with some new recruits who love the game and are always willing to study.

I think a more important point for Long Island teams is how we can get more teams involved. Long Island has some fantastic school districts (Syosset, Jericho, Commack, Northport, just to name a few) that don't participate in quiz bowl to almost any extent, and those districts' participation could greatly increase the competitiveness of quiz bowl on Long Island itself. A quick glance at the date claims shows only three tournaments on Long Island this year, which might make it harder for new teams to get involved (just a thought).

Anyways, I look forward to a great year and hope to attend as many tournaments as humanly possible.

[ProfessorIanDuncan]

Brian, there will be Westchester tournaments this year, notably two planned in Scarsdale and a potential one in Irvington that Long Island teams should attend. The NY Metro State Tournament last year had only 1 Long Island school and they ended up winning. Westchester is a region that needs to introduce pyramidal quiz bowl to a lot of teams and expanding in both regions simultaneously seems like a good idea.

[bmanzo44]

That's a very good idea. Hopefully our school is able to make its way up to Westchester for some tournaments. We are usually able to get to NJ no problem, so Scarsdale or Irvington shouldn't be a big deal.

[MServetasF1]

One area I wish had another tournament or two was the city of New York itself. NYC is a central location to our area, and is (relatively) easy to get into from the suburban areas. While transport could still be a hassle (especially with that construction near the GWB), attracting the lesser-experienced teams from the area into an NYC tournament would be easier than getting them to go to, say, Westchester for LI and NJ teams or NJ for LI and Westchester teams, etc. Also: then a team from say, Brooklyn Tech or the likes could get introduced to the game.