Sunday tournaments

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Great Bustard
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Sunday tournaments

Post by Great Bustard »

So it seems like a few tournaments have recently been held or scheduled for Sundays. I wholeheartedly support this trend. But do others? I realize that asking here is asking for selection bias, but generally speaking, what are people's thoughts? Would Catholic and/or religious schools not like this for religious reasons? Do people prefer one day off, so to speak? How likely are people to go to tournaments on Sunday, if they've already been to one on Saturday? Just looking to start a discussion.
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by David Riley »

I raised this issue in Illinois about ten years ago and got a resounding "NO!" but it could certainly be revisited. I think those that would prefer it might prefer a two-day tournament rather than a separate Sunday tournament. In Illinois, our schedule is pretty full already and many people already feel that their time and budgets are stretched to the limit. And the religious issues do need to be considered; a Sunday tournament might have to start after lunch and might therefore need to have fewer matches.

When I asked my administration about this at the time, they had no concerns as we had and still have several activities on Sundays anyway. My team said they would just attend an earlier mass (though I don't know how services in other denominations would handle a scheduling conflict). I'd be interested in others' opinions on this.
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by mithokie »

As a coach, my own personal stance (not necessarily my team's stance) is that I would strongly prefer not to have tournaments on Sundays as that is a day that I spend with my family and attend religious services myself. A few of my players would probably choose not to play on Sundays, but I expect the vast majority would be fine with it either way. I can see missing a Sunday with my family on rare occasions for quiz bowl (for a national or large regional tournament that happens once or twice a year at most). My preference is to see circuit tournaments on Saturdays.
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Scaled Flowerpiercer
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by Scaled Flowerpiercer »

I suppose this is largely a regional matter, but I know that for our team Sundays in general seem like a very good idea. The team, for years, has had nearly no Christians - my Freshman year in particular the team had twice as many Zoroastrians as Christians - and even this year, now that the population of the team has greatly expanded, I think there are at most 3 (out of about 25) members who attend church services with even remotely enough frequency to cause them to miss a tournament.

On the other hand, the fact that tournaments on Saturdays has greatly decreased my attendance at services at my Synagogue, something which I do not find entirely distressing, though I imagine if my Saturdays were free of quizbowl, I would use many of them to perform my religious duties, so in this sense, at least where I am, as far as religious reasons go, Saturdays and Sundays are almost equal. To clarify, to my knowledge, the only time religion has interfered with a tournament for my team is this year's PHSAT at Princeton, which, being on Yom Kippur, 3/4 of our A team (and many other players) would not have been able to attend, and thus we did not send a team.

However, there are additional reasons to try to host some tournaments on Sundays - for one, it allows SAT/ACT weekends to be less "taboo," planning a tournament for a post-test Sunday would allow a tournament to occur that weekend without conflicting with a test, or following another tournament, as other Sundays would. Also, varying the days of tournament seems like a good idea in general - on more than one occasional, people who would have liked to participate on the team have been regularly unable to attend tournaments due to having a weekly Saturday commitment which they could only very rarely neglect.
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by Cheynem »

I consider church attendance to be important; however, I also enjoy playing tournaments and have made my personal peace with the idea that on an occasional basis I won't be able to attend church services. This is something that I would encourage Christians in quizbowl to do; if this occasionally results in not being able to play tournaments (and again, I would suggest Sundays not be the primary setting for tournaments, which is true, of course), then so be it, rather than any attempt to set hard and fast rules about when tournaments can and cannot be--if for some reason, Sunday tournaments work better than Saturday tournaments at a specific time, I say go for it. If it isn't a travel tournament, I have also compromised by attending Saturday evening services (or I suppose if you were able to, attending very early Sunday morning services).
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed »

I imagine that work/school on Monday is much more of a factor than church on Sunday, especially if teams are travelling from outside the immediate area.
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by djones »

I would say that I might get a little pushback from parents about Sunday tournaments, particularly if we have to travel a great distance (which we often do, since there is little quiz bowl in SW Ohio), and their kids were getting home at 11 or 12 on a school night. It might work for local tournaments that don't draw a lot of teams from any distance, but maybe not so well for events with a broader field.

However, we have attended Solon's two-day event over President Day weekend for the past several years, and love the two-day format for events, since we get a ton of matches over two days without any extra travel. Their tournament draws good teams from multiple states (DCC, Culver and others are regular attendees, and some Kentucky schools have attended as well in the past), so it appears that the format is well-received. Since there is a holiday on Monday, I get no pushback from my kids or parents. I think maybe targeting more tournaments on long weekends (Martin Luther King Day, Presidents Day, etc.) would be a great idea. The Texas Invitational is another good example.
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ryandillon
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by ryandillon »

djones wrote: However, we have attended Solon's two-day event over President Day weekend for the past several years, and love the two-day format for events, since we get a ton of matches over two days without any extra travel. Their tournament draws good teams from multiple states (DCC, Culver and others are regular attendees, and some Kentucky schools have attended as well in the past), so it appears that the format is well-received. Since there is a holiday on Monday, I get no pushback from my kids or parents. I think maybe targeting more tournaments on long weekends (Martin Luther King Day, Presidents Day, etc.) would be a great idea. The Texas Invitational is another good example.
Yeah the two-day regular-season tournaments is a good idea, but the only ones I've ever played were at Solon. One cool thing was that even if we'd played say the Saturday set, we could still have the opportunity to play a good field on the Sunday set. And if we hadn't played the Saturday set, then we got two days of competition against the same field, which is a huge draw if there's a strong field.

I'm not sure how well-received a tournament only on Sunday would be, especially if teams had already competed on Saturday, but I definitely feel like there should be more two-day tournaments, particularly with the nationals "warm up" tournaments. With the strength of the field every year, it'd be cool if Culver could possibly turn their Midwest Championship into a two-day tournament. I feel like with the proximity of nationals, most of the teams attending would stick around to play the same competition on a second set that they otherwise wouldn't be able to do.
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Howard
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by Howard »

In the Baltimore/DC area, Sunday tournaments are roughly as successful as Saturday tournaments. I'd be cautious about extrapolating this to other places, though. There's a great amount of religious and cultural diversity here, and the community is large enough that even if we take ten or twenty percent off the top, there are still a lot of teams from which to draw the tournament field.

With my team, most students won't want to do both a Saturday and Sunday tournament on the same weekend. When such situations arise, we'll often take one group of students to the Saturday event and a largely different group to the Sunday event.

We've not made any overnight trips to attend tournaments and have no plans to do so in the near future. I have, however, seen teams come to the region to play in two tournaments on the same weekend because they were near enough to each other to get two tournaments on the same trip.
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by jonpin »

Skepticism and Animal Feed wrote:I imagine that work/school on Monday is much more of a factor than church on Sunday, especially if teams are travelling from outside the immediate area.
While the religious angle does come into play in arguing against Sunday events, I think that the above is a more important factor. If we were a nationally competitive team, I might take us to Harvard Fall Tournament, but "leave Friday after school and return very late Saturday night" and "leave Saturday afternoon and return very late Sunday night" are a world of difference apart. The former seems much more efficient, and the latter both wasteful (basically the whole day of Saturday is shot) and harmful (in terms of students being ready for school on Monday).

I don't know how Protestant churches schedule their masses, but I know that in general, Catholic churches have a Saturday evening mass that students could attend when competing on Sunday (although some might consider competing at all a violation of Sabbath prohibitions; Bernard mentioned this the other way around in announcing a Sunday tournament, saying that he had lost many Jewish students when they found out everything was on Saturdays).
I hope I'm not taken as being too flippant, but I'm not sure that Sunday as a religious day is that significant a problem. On math team trips that stretch to Sunday, I've never heard anyone (or anyone's parents for that matter) complain about the lack of opportunity for worship, and though we have a great number of extracurriculars that go on long trips, I don't know of any specific cases where it's come up. I'd imagine it would simply be a self-selection remedy; those with strong desire to attend Mass would just not go to that competition.
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Matt Weiner
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by Matt Weiner »

There used to be 64-team tournaments in the DC area on Sundays all the time. Every devout Christian quizbowler I've ever known of has played Sunday tournaments and made arrangements that make it possible. We shouldn't rule out the possibility because of theoretical concerns that have proven less than total roadblocks in reality.
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by tintinnabulation »

I don't know how Protestant churches schedule their masses...
Not to sound like I'm laughing at you or anything, but Protestant churches don't have Mass. They have church services. (Not that it really matters.)

I know that I usually skip church when I'm out of town, so in my opinion, having a Sunday tournament you have to travel to will probably be perceived differently than a Sunday tournament that is in the area. Of course, there are always teams in whichever area you're holding the tournament in, but still. I'm not against Sunday tournaments in general since there
will always be something every tournament conflicts with. Just as long as we don't move the majority of tournaments to Sundays, I'm fine. (Not that my opinion matters, since I hardly get to go to Saturday tournaments anyway.)

The "after school Friday, late Saturday" vs. "Late Saturday afternoon into late Sunday" thing also has merit.
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by Howard »

Matt Weiner wrote:There used to be 64-team tournaments in the DC area on Sundays all the time. Every devout Christian quizbowler I've ever known of has played Sunday tournaments and made arrangements that make it possible. We shouldn't rule out the possibility because of theoretical concerns that have proven less than total roadblocks in reality.
All the time is a bit of an overstatement. There were typically two or three a year. Nonetheless, the Sunday tournaments seemed to be roughly as successful as Saturday tournaments during that time period.

It's been my finding that whether a particular player can/will play on a Sunday depends entirely on that particular player. Some didn't mind missing a Sunday observance or two, some would make other arrangements, and some decided their Sunday religious observance was more important than the tournament.

I think we're making a mistake, though, if we presume what was possible in DC is necessarily possible everywhere. If you're in a region where it's difficult to have a successful Saturday tournament, it may be impossible to have one on a Sunday. If you're in a region where a significant portion of the players place high importance on their Sunday worship, then it may be difficult to hold a successful Sunday event.

Unless we're proposing this in an area where it's already been proven successful (such as DC), I think the host needs to make some careful considerations (beyond those surrounding the host's venue and staff). What's the general attitude of the region? What percentage of traveling teams should we expect? How many teams would I be able to expect on a Saturday, and how many fewer might I get on a Sunday? We'll never know the full answer without trying the event. And while I agree we shouldn't just easily dismiss the idea, it may nonetheless be the case that these events aren't practical everywhere.

The ultimate answer is that we'll never really know without trying it. The bigger question is who wants to take the risk of running the experiment.
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

tintinnabulation wrote:
I don't know how Protestant churches schedule their masses...
Not to sound like I'm laughing at you or anything, but Protestant churches don't have Mass. They have church services. (Not that it really matters.)
Anglicans and (some) Lutherans celebrate mass.
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by tintinnabulation »

College Park Spyders wrote:
tintinnabulation wrote:
I don't know how Protestant churches schedule their masses...
Not to sound like I'm laughing at you or anything, but Protestant churches don't have Mass. They have church services. (Not that it really matters.)

Anglicans and (some) Lutherans celebrate mass.
Sorry. You're right. Should have said "generally speaking."
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by David Riley »

But Charlie, Anglicans and Lutherans aren't Protestants, they're alternative Catholics :grin:
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Re: Sunday tournaments

Post by AKKOLADE »

Don't talk about masses of things, talk about the viabilty & pros/cons of Sunday tournaments.
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