NAQT state championship qualifier policies

[Important Bird Area]

Starting a new thread for this because questions about it were showing up in the individual tournament threads.

Here's a reminder of our standard rule re: state championships as HSNCT qualifiers:

[Teams can qualify for HSNCT by] finishing as the highest-placed team at an NAQT State Championship or NAQT State Qualifier that had not qualified for the HSNCT prior to the state tournament. Therefore every NAQT State Championship/Qualifier will always qualify at least one new team for the HSNCT (unless every team in attendance had already qualified). Of course, the top 15% of the field at a State Championship (or State Qualifier) will qualify normally. If the top not-yet-qualified team is from a school that has already qualified one or more teams for the HSNCT, that school will receive an additional bid, even if those other teams did not finish in the top 15% at the state championship itself.

Here's a clarification R. issued this morning re: state championships announced for one or more states (such as Maryland/DC):

If a NAQT State Championship/Qualifier is officially the championship for two (or more) states, then the top not-yet-qualified finisher from each state will receive an invitation, as will the top small school from each state (assuming a median finish or better). In addition, each state's champion will receive a reserved berth. For these purposes, the District of Columbia counts as a state.

[Important Bird Area]

Also can you clarify the implications of this to Kellenberg (and other potential Empire State invaders) playing at the NJ championship?

As I mentioned in the New Jersey thread: in the absence of a state championship in their own state, they are certainly allowed to play. As for the HSNCT implications, NAQT is still discussing that internally and I hope to issue a clarification soon.

[Edward Powers]

Jeff,

I do not think you have addressed my question---your answers deal with either HSNCT qualification or with teams crossing state boundaries if there is NOT a state tournament in their own state.

New York does have a state tournament---at Ithaca, to be sure, but one exists. Now I understand Brother Nigel's reasoning for coming to the closer venue, and I have no quarrel with that.

What you are not addressing is local issues and local pride. As I said in the New Jersey thread, many schools depend for school funding from public success. So, since Kellenberg is NOT a NJ school, my question was simply this: Who will NAQT acknowledge as the New Jersey Champion if Kellenberg wins, leaving 2nd place for the highest ranking NJ team? Since this 2nd place team finished ahead of all other NJ teams, is it the acknowledged NAQT NJ Champion? or would that be Kellenberg, despite the fact that it is a NY team and New York has its own tournament in Ithaca?

Take my own school's case: two years ago we won our first NAQT NJ Championship. As a consequence, last year our budget was significantly increased, almost doubled, so we could afford to go to nationals last year for the first time. I know there are other schools in similar situations. One school, to remain unnamed, asks each of its kids for $100 per tournament to defray bus driver expenses for the day, since the school will not pay for this expense. So, as a consequence, it does not play very often, but it is in the field next week. It has a good team capable of winning NJ States and maybe such a win would persuade its administrators to help more with the team's budget, as occurred with my school when we gained some success and publicity. But the addition of an outstanding Kellenberg to the NJ field has now made that possibility even harder. Not impossible---but harder. Suppose this school finishes 2nd to Kellenberg? Will NAQT back its claim of being the NJ NAQT Champion, since it will have finsihed ahead of every other NJ school in the NJ NAQT State Championship, or will Kellenberg get NAQT's support, despite it not being a NJ school and despite the fact that it could have traveled to Ithaca for its own state's NAQT Championship?

Further, I think you need to not simply discuss this, you need to RULE on it if you want to be fair to all NJ participants, and others in other states in a similar situation throughout the nation either this year or in future years. As I indicated on the NJ thread, I do not mind Kellenberg participating, in fact, I relish it, but we do need a ruling about its jurisdictional eligibilty as a NY team in a NJ Championship. So, given the issues of local pride and local finances, I hope you will have a ruling soon. Will you?

EDIT: To get to the heart of the matter, I have no problem with Kellenberg being eligible to PLAY, but should it also be eligible to win a NJ Title? I think not, just as Jersey teams should not be eligible for other titles in any of their 4 neighboring states. My view is analagous to how NAQT treats outstanding hybrid teams that periodically emerge throughout the year. NAQT allows hybrid teams to play & compete, but if they win they are NOT eligible for HSNCT qualification ( that is, they are INELIGIBLE to win the national title). Why not adopt a similar rule here?

[BroNi]

If it will make it any easier, in my original email to Dan @ Princeton, I wrote...

"And....if on the off chance that we win, we would be happy to give up the trophy to the highest placing NJ team in the field."

So, as for us, the case is moot. We just want to play good quizbowl against good teams.

[Edward Powers]

Brother Nigel,

I thought you might have said something like that, for I assumed you simply wanted to play good quizbowl. Unfortunately, no one knew until now that you had said that to Dan when you registered. So I hope this revelation will make it easier in this case for both Dan & Jeff.

Even so, given the speed with which Jeff approved your request, I do not think the general issue is moot, for this issue goes beyond your team and NJ States---it is an issue which can come up with some frequency in the future, so prudence suggests that NAQT should have a clear and thoughtful policy about this issue. If it does not, then let's treat NAQT States as just another NAQT based local invitational like LIFT, to which all interested teams can come and let's drop the "State" modifier in these tournaments. But if NAQT wants to preserve its State Championships and Qualifiers, I think it needs to make a clear ruling and not simply assume the larger issue is moot simply because of Kellenberg's magnaminity in this specific case. We know from experience that not every school in the future will be similarly magnanimous, hence the need for a clear policy.

[Important Bird Area]

Jeff,

I do not think you have addressed my question---your answers deal with either HSNCT qualification or with teams crossing state boundaries if there is NOT a state tournament in their own state.

Indeed I have not. NAQT is currently discussing these issues internally, precisely in the interest of producing a clear and thoughtful policy that covers all combinations of jurisdictions (there are a lot of unusual hypotheticals hiding under this particular rock). I hope we'll have a clarification within the next few days.

[anderson]

Hello,

A few weeks ago, I sent an e-mail to the address provided on the NAQT website, asking if our team could participate in the NJ or DE state championships, instead of PA's, as we live in the Philadelphia suburbs and the drive to State College would be about 3.5 hours. I'll quote the response I received:

"NAQT does have a pretty liberal policy about most tournaments to allow
teams to save time and money by going wherever is closest, but we want
our state championships to be true state championships, so you would
need to attend the Pennsylvania event rather than one in a different
state."

I'm not sure if this is some double standard or miscommunication in the NAQT organization, but I want to inquire why Kellenberg, being in a similar situation as us, would be allowed to play in the NJ championship, while we received a response asserting the opposite.

Well, the DE championship has passed and we probably also won't play in the NJ championship, because I haven't communicated with my teammates about it yet and it's already less than one week away, so it doesn't really matter to us. I'm just wondering why there seem to be conflicting responses.

Finally, is there a page on the NAQT website about whether teams can participate in other state championships? I searched around and couldn't find any definitive answer, which was why I sent the e-mail in the first place.

[Important Bird Area]

I'm just wondering why there seem to be conflicting responses.

Pennsylvania has only one state championship (which is centrally located).

New York should have had two (upstate and metro NYC); we were able to find a host for only one (at Cornell), so Kellenberg does not have a state championship in their own region and asked for permission to attend the nearest state championship.

I believe NAQT would be open to the possibility of having two NAQT state championships in Pennsylvania in the future (were we to find, for example, interested Pittsburgh-area and Philadelphia-area hosts).

[Important Bird Area]

Finally, is there a page on the NAQT website about whether teams can participate in other state championships? I searched around and couldn't find any definitive answer, which was why I sent the e-mail in the first place.

Not yet, but we're working on that.

Our existing policy is "State Championships and Qualifiers are restricted to teams from a single state unless prior arrangements have been made with NAQT" (source), so emailing us was the right thing to do.

[kayli]

What are the qualifications for a state to be able to have two NAQT state qualifiers? Florida might be in need of another.

[Important Bird Area]

We're happy to consider plural state championships in cases where:

-The geography of the state would impose significant travel costs on teams from one or more areas of the state.

-There are possible hosts at two widely separated points.

It's quite possible that we would consider, say, a Miami-area and a North Florida state championship, if interested hosts stepped forward.

[jonpin]

This is ludicrous to the point of needing a new name, because what you're suggesting aren't state championships anymore. Relatively speaking, Pennsylvania isn't a large state. In fact, it's the 33rd largest state by area. So the idea that you might look into Pennsylvania being just too big for all of its best teams to meet in one place, then there's at least 32 other states that would also meet that criteria. To a rough approximation, you can get from anywhere in PA to State College in about 4 hours. Now I know that 4 hours is a bit of a trip, but if you're arguing that it's incurring too much expense for a team that wants to attend a state championship, then how many "state championships" does Texas get? Do we get a Texas State Championship at Dallas, a Texas State Championship at Houston, a Texas State Championship at San Antonio, and a Texas State Championship at Amarillo? What about the poor school near Brownsville that will still need to travel 5 hours? Will we have State Championships for Missouri in both St. Louis and Kansas City? Will we have State Championships for Kansas in Topeka, Wichita, and somewhere out in the western part of the state? These would all be silly, because things have names, and words have meanings.

The whole point of a state championship is that it crowns the champion of a state. There are dozens of other tournaments for which there are no geographic restrictions to entry. This is a special class of tournaments with a specific reason for geographic restrictions, and I think that--with the optional exceptions of California, Texas, and the Maryland/DC merge--state championships should remain one tournament restricted to teams from that state to crown the best team in that state. If a specific state with a quiz bowl circuit doesn't have a state championship, maybe that will encourage someone to step up and volunteer to host that tournament (And it's not even volunteering! You get paid cashy money to host these tournaments and NAQT doesn't even charge for questions. Except for pizza and trophies, you're practically printing money for yourself!).

[Matt Weiner]

This is ludicrous to the point of needing a new name, because what you're suggesting aren't state championships anymore. Relatively speaking, Pennsylvania isn't a large state. In fact, it's the 33rd largest state by area. So the idea that you might look into Pennsylvania being just too big for all of its best teams to meet in one place, then there's at least 32 other states that would also meet that criteria. To a rough approximation, you can get from anywhere in PA to State College in about 4 hours. Now I know that 4 hours is a bit of a trip, but if you're arguing that it's incurring too much expense for a team that wants to attend a state championship, then how many "state championships" does Texas get? Do we get a Texas State Championship at Dallas, a Texas State Championship at Houston, a Texas State Championship at San Antonio, and a Texas State Championship at Amarillo? What about the poor school near Brownsville that will still need to travel 5 hours? Will we have State Championships for Missouri in both St. Louis and Kansas City? Will we have State Championships for Kansas in Topeka, Wichita, and somewhere out in the western part of the state? These would all be silly, because things have names, and words have meanings.

The whole point of a state championship is that it crowns the champion of a state. There are dozens of other tournaments for which there are no geographic restrictions to entry. This is a special class of tournaments with a specific reason for geographic restrictions, and I think that--with the optional exceptions of California, Texas, and the Maryland/DC merge--state championships should remain one tournament restricted to teams from that state to crown the best team in that state. If a specific state with a quiz bowl circuit doesn't have a state championship, maybe that will encourage someone to step up and volunteer to host that tournament (And it's not even volunteering! You get paid cashy money to host these tournaments and NAQT doesn't even charge for questions. Except for pizza and trophies, you're practically printing money for yourself!).

post of the year

[Edward Powers]

Jeff,

Maybe you have addressed my question indirectly, but I am not sure, so allow me to elaborate.

In the earlier clarification about Maryland and DC it was indicated that the Champion of each "state" would get an automatic bid to nationals. Then it was said that for these purposes, DC would be treated as a separate state. And of course Maryland IS a state. But it was also stated that DC & Maryland would have one combined tournament, not two, to determine these 2 state championships.

So, a few questions, please, based on the following hypothetical: Suppose in the Maryland/DC State Championships, the following occurs:

Saint Anselm's of DC finishes 1st, Richard Montgomery of Maryland finishes 2nd, GDS of DC finishes 3rd, and Quince Orchard of Marlyand finishes 4th, and so on and so forth.. Does R's clarification above mean that this tournament will produce TWO state Champions, so in this hypothetical, Saint Anselm's for the "State" of DC and Richard Montgomery for the State of Maryland?

If so, would Kellenberg, lacking a regional NYC area "state" Championship, by default become the Southern/NYC NY State Champion if it finishes 1st or 2nd next week in NJ? And if it finshes 1st in NJ, would the 2nd place Jersey team be the NJ Champion, just as the 2nd place overall Richard Montgomery team would be the Maryland State Champion and not Saint Anselm's, since St. Anselms would earn the DC State Championship instead for this performance? Or am I misunderstanding something here in R's clarification?

EDIT: And can R's clarification really apply beyond the obvious problem that the special case of DC poses for teams wishing to participate in a State Championship without running into the potentially nasty series of problems that Jon has pointed out?

[Important Bird Area]

So, a few questions, please, based on the following hypothetical: Suppose in the Maryland/DC State Championships, the following occurs:

Saint Anselm's of DC finishes 1st, Richard Montgomery of Maryland finishes 2nd, GDS of DC finishes 3rd, and Quince Orchard of Marlyand finishes 4th, and so on and so forth.. Does R's clarification above mean that this tournament will produce TWO state Champions, so in this hypothetical, Saint Anselm's for the "State" of DC and Richard Montgomery for the State of Maryland?

Correct.

If so, would Kellenberg, lacking a regional NYC area "state" Championship, by default become the Southern/NYC NY State Champion if it finishes 1st or 2nd next week in NJ? And if it finshes 1st in NJ, would the 2nd place Jersey team be the NJ Champion, just as the 2nd place overall Richard Montgomery team would be the Maryland State Champion and not Saint Anselm's, since St. Anselms would earn the DC State Championship instead for this performance? Or am I misunderstanding something here in R's clarification?

Full clarification to follow, but for now:

-If there is not an actual host for a metro NYC New York State Championship, NAQT would not award such a title (ie, a team could not claim the title merely by being the only team willing to travel out of state)

-If a New York team were to win the tournament, then yes, the 2nd place New Jersey team would be the New Jersey State Champion.

[Edward Powers]

Jeff,

Thanks for your swift response.

One follow-up if I might, recognizing that you intend give a more elaborate explanation later.

Here is my follow-up: Does this mean that teams in the present and in the future, anywhere in the country, who are in an identical situation as Kellenberg is now, that is, as a welcome guest in an otherwise predefined NAQT State Championship Tournament, will know immediately that they are in fact welcome to compete but that they are simultaneously jurisdictionally ineligible for a chance to earn the host State's NAQT Championship Title, even if they win the first place position when all is said and done?

[Important Bird Area]

[out-of-state teams] are in fact welcome to compete but that they are simultaneously jurisdictionally ineligible for a chance to earn the host State's NAQT Championship Title, even if they win the first place position when all is said and done?

This is correct and applies nationwide.

Reminders:

-Please contact NAQT before registering for another state's state championship

-If your own state* has a state championship, we will direct you to register for that event

*(New York and California are split into two state-level regions for this purpose.)