Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dan-Don »

Moving Day wrote:Is this still fixing to be a 4-team field at the MS level?
Yeah, it's official that Rhodes has dropped. So it looks like the MS division will consist of a double-round robin followed by 2 game fina; with 2 Barrington teams, 1 St. Raymond team, and 1 SAA team. (Apparently their roster consists solely of 8th graders.) Anant is likely to know more about the SAA situation than I do, so if you have questions, ask him. Otherwise, that's our plan for the MS division.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by indiaisasubcontinent7 »

I am putting out a call for moderators for this tournament. I believe that I'll need around 10 or so. It'll be first come, first served. Lunch will be provided (pizza).

So far, Jonah is the only outside moderator I have. Thanks.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by David Riley »

If my team doesn't mind fending for themselves, I can moderate if needed.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dominator »

As I have said, I would like to moderate for this tournament. As I have not said, I have an assistant coach who may want to moderate, but I'll leave that decision/announcement to that person. He/she reads these boards, so when he/she sees this post, he/she should indicate preference regarding moderating.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by David Riley »

You don't know if it's a he or a she? :grin:
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dominator »

I can now confirm that:
(1) My assistant coach is willing to moderate.
(2) My assistant coach is a she.
FWIW, said assistant coach is Kristin Strey.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by the return of AHAN »

I see the e-mail wherein Barrington Station has 2 teams, St. Raymond's has 2 teams, and SAA has 1 team. How is this gonna work? Double RR will take 10 packets, with each team sitting twice. Any chance of a last-minute addition to bump it to 6?
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dan-Don »

Dominator wrote:I can now confirm that:
(1) My assistant coach is willing to moderate.
(2) My assistant coach is a she.
FWIW, said assistant coach is Kristin Strey.
Kristin, can you please do stats for us? Sadly, our statsperson has to be somewhere.

Moving Day wrote:I see the e-mail wherein Barrington Station has 2 teams, St. Raymond's has 2 teams, and SAA has 1 team. How is this gonna work? Double RR will take 10 packets, with each team sitting twice. Any chance of a last-minute addition to bump it to 6?
We don't have the rooms to support that. But we have 13 packets, so we can still do a final. Additionally, since we have 21 teams in the high school division, three high schools teams will be sitting each round in the prelims. That makes four teams that can scrimmage on packets they otherwise wouldn't hear.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by TheDoctor »

I will definitely do stats. Have you asked for rosters yet? If not, I'm fine with waiting until day-of to enter them.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by the return of AHAN »

Ee gads, what ugly numbers for a tournament! So, HS is 6 games in 7 rounds followed by a re-bracket? Sizes of the re-brackets?
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dan-Don »

TheDoctor wrote:I will definitely do stats. Have you asked for rosters yet? If not, I'm fine with waiting until day-of to enter them.
No, we'll just get those after Round 1 I suppose.
Moving Day wrote:Ee gads, what ugly numbers for a tournament! So, HS is 6 games in 7 rounds followed by a re-bracket? Sizes of the re-brackets?
For high school we have 13 packets, so we're doing 3 brackets of 7 in the prelims, followed by 4/4/4/5, followed by final. Playoffs might change if I decide that 5 teams in the championship bracket with a 1-game final or 5 teams in the first consolation bracket would be preferable. We'll see.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by dtaylor4 »

Dan-Don wrote:
TheDoctor wrote:I will definitely do stats. Have you asked for rosters yet? If not, I'm fine with waiting until day-of to enter them.
No, we'll just get those after Round 1 I suppose.
Moving Day wrote:Ee gads, what ugly numbers for a tournament! So, HS is 6 games in 7 rounds followed by a re-bracket? Sizes of the re-brackets?
For high school we have 13 packets, so we're doing 3 brackets of 7 in the prelims, followed by 4/4/4/5, followed by final. Playoffs might change if I decide that 5 teams in the championship bracket with a 1-game final or 5 teams in the first consolation bracket would be preferable. We'll see.
To avoid breaking ties across teams that never played, why not do 6/6/6/3 crossover?
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dan-Don »

dtaylor4 wrote:
Dan-Don wrote:
TheDoctor wrote:I will definitely do stats. Have you asked for rosters yet? If not, I'm fine with waiting until day-of to enter them.
No, we'll just get those after Round 1 I suppose.
Moving Day wrote:Ee gads, what ugly numbers for a tournament! So, HS is 6 games in 7 rounds followed by a re-bracket? Sizes of the re-brackets?
For high school we have 13 packets, so we're doing 3 brackets of 7 in the prelims, followed by 4/4/4/5, followed by final. Playoffs might change if I decide that 5 teams in the championship bracket with a 1-game final or 5 teams in the first consolation bracket would be preferable. We'll see.
To avoid breaking ties across teams that never played, why not do 6/6/6/3 crossover?
EDIT: Donald just explained this to me. Yeah, that's what we'll do.

EDIT 2: NEvermind. Maine South dropped and St. Raymond dropped 1 team. High school will be 2 brackets of 10 then 4/4/4/4/4 with the game against the team from your bracket carrying over. Then final. Middle School will still be double RR.
EDIT 3: We have the packets to do a triple round robin for MS.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by TheDoctor »

Is there a final field update?
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dan-Don »

TheDoctor wrote:Is there a final field update?
Yep.

Barrington x 2
Belvidere North x 2
Chicago Christian
Fenton x 2
IMSA x 3
Latin x 2
Loyola x 2
New Trier x 3
Stevenson
St. Ignatius

Barrington MS x 2
SAA
St. Raymond

In addition, surprisingly, Kaneland tried to register at the very last minute but Anant had to turn them down for lack of space/fair format.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Stained Diviner »

I'm counting 19 high school teams, which means that Kaneland should be let in.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by David Riley »

I'm counting 19 also, but didn't Barrington ask for three teams upthread? If not, I would also let in Kaneland.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by the return of AHAN »

Dan-Don wrote:
TheDoctor wrote:Is there a final field update?
Yep.

Barrington x 2
Belvidere North x 2
Chicago Christian
Fenton x 2
IMSA x 3
Latin x 2
Loyola x 2
New Trier x 3
Stevenson
St. Ignatius

Barrington MS x 2
SAA
St. Raymond

In addition, surprisingly, Kaneland tried to register at the very last minute but Anant had to turn them down for lack of space/fair format.
I thought I registered (and paid) for three teams for Barrington HS (interrobang)

edit: I see Riley backing my claim, plus Anant sent out an e-mail confirming we have three.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dan-Don »

Moving Day wrote:
Dan-Don wrote:
TheDoctor wrote:Is there a final field update?
Yep.

Barrington x 2
Belvidere North x 2
Chicago Christian
Fenton x 2
IMSA x 3
Latin x 2
Loyola x 2
New Trier x 3
Stevenson
St. Ignatius

Barrington MS x 2
SAA
St. Raymond

In addition, surprisingly, Kaneland tried to register at the very last minute but Anant had to turn them down for lack of space/fair format.
I thought I registered (and paid) for three teams for Barrington HS (interrobang)

edit: I see Riley backing my claim, plus Anant sent out an e-mail confirming we have three.
Barrington HS has 3, that's a typo. As for Kaneland, we could run a 21 team like we'd been planning but that's Anant's call.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dan-Don »

Franklin MS from Springfield, IL has been added to the MS field. Their coach claims to have contacted me weeks ago, which is not the case. But thankfully there's room for them to play. Thanks to Jeff Price for bringing this to my attention.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by the return of AHAN »

Dan-Don wrote:Franklin MS from Springfield, IL has been added... Thanks to Jeff Price for bringing this to my attention.
Hey. It's what I do. And now for my next trick... lecturing middle school coaches on computational math strategies at an IESA workshop two weeks from today (oh, where have you gone, AHAN, Jr??) . :aaa:
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Moving Day wrote:
Dan-Don wrote:Franklin MS from Springfield, IL has been added... Thanks to Jeff Price for bringing this to my attention.
Hey. It's what I do. And now for my next trick... lecturing middle school coaches on computational math strategies at an IESA workshop two weeks from today (oh, where have you gone, AHAN, Jr??) . :aaa:
Your strategy is to tell them not to patronize tournaments that use comp math, right?

/hopes he hasn't started a threadjack

Good luck to all teams tomorrow!

/threadjack averted
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Hello all! Liveblogging Wake Up Call is on.

Live stats, high school division: http://results.scobo.net/SQBS.aspx?org= ... =standings

Live stats, middle school division: http://results.scobo.net/SQBS.aspx?org= ... =standings
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Stats are up through 2; many high scores, including a couple 500 games. Top points per bonus right now is Loyola A, who is 0-2 after playing IMSA A and New Trier A.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by sssssssskkkk »

Nice nice my man Nolan's IMSA A is 3-0 and so is the sophomore IMSA B.
Keep it up IMSA!
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Pseudonyms are so cool, people. Keep using them, because, you know, nobody wants to know who the people really are on teams at all.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Carangoides ciliarius wrote:Pseudonyms are so cool, people. Keep using them, because, you know, nobody wants to know who the people really are on teams at all.
I have good news! I have a list of who is on that team; at lunch, I find out who is who on that team, using force if necessary.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Top score so far: IMSA A, 615 points, featuring a 16/1 line by Nolan, including 10/0 in the second half.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Stats are up through lunch, which is happening now.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Stats will be up for round 7 shortly, assuming I get those scoresheets quickly; We've got the pseudonyms fixed in the upcoming update.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dan-Don »

SAA cleared the field to win the middle school tournament.

1. SAA
2. Barrington A
3. St. Raymond
4. Barrington B

Franklin went 2-2 in the first RR but left after lunch.

Stats at the above link or here: http://results.scobo.net/SQBS.aspx?org= ... =standings

We're approaching the rebracket of the high school division.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Finals are going on right now: Loyola A vs. IMSA B in a one game match for the right to play a one game final against IMSA A.
Combined, pre-final stats are here: http://results.scobo.net/SQBS.aspx?org= ... =standings
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dan-Don »

Loyola A beat IMSA B for the chance to play IMSA A in the final. Loyola A beat IMSA A to take first place. Final standings:

1. Loyola A
2. IMSA A
3. IMSA B
4. Latin A
5. NT A
6. Fenton A
7. Barrington A
8. Stevenson
9. Loyola B
10. Chicago Christian
11. Latin B
12. Belvidere A
13. St. Ignatius
14. Barrington B
15. IMSA C
16. NT B
17. NT C
19. Barrington C
20. Belvidere B
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

The stats in the prior link are accurate, but for sanity's sake:

Prelims-only: http://results.scobo.net/niu/wakeupcallNU
Full results, including finals: http://results.scobo.net/SQBS.aspx?org= ... =standings
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by dtaylor4 »

How did playoffs work? Would it be possible to get something with just the playoff games?
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by sssssssskkkk »

Props to Loyola for coming back and taking down both IMSA's to take the championship.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by the return of AHAN »

Most encouraging comment of the day? One of my 7th graders, playing for Barrington Station A, saying THIS was her favorite tournament she has ever played in. When pressed, she said she really enjoyed the fact that the questions were more difficult. I say this bodes well, no?
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dominator »

This was an awesome day of quizbowl. Thanks to Anant and Dan-Don for making it happen. Congratulations to Loyola A on the victory.

It was great to see the middle school division. The students seemed to all have a great time. Congratulations to SAA for a very nice win.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Stained Diviner »

The question set was very good, and the level of competition was significantly higher than I expected.

Hopefully, the next time Northwestern hosts a tournament, they will find enough moderators, find enough laptops or print some questions, inform moderators about whether negs or bouncebacks are being used, figure out where buzzers go before twenty minutes after the tournament was supposed to start, send teams to lunch before 1:00, give teams who have to find food more than 40 minutes to eat, order enough food for the moderators who are being paid in food, and order some drinks to go with that food.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Matt Bardoe »

I would like to second that the question set was very good. Certainly for what it was intended to be, I don't know that I could ask for better.

Starting on time, a little more direction for the teams (when to eat, where to eat, what the rules are, etc.), sharing scores, and standings. These could be improvements.

Still and all, a wonderful time. Thanks to everyone at Northwestern.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Westwon wrote:The question set was very good, and the level of competition was significantly higher than I expected.

Hopefully, the next time Northwestern hosts a tournament, they will find enough moderators, find enough laptops or print some questions, inform moderators about whether negs or bouncebacks are being used, figure out where buzzers go before twenty minutes after the tournament was supposed to start, send teams to lunch before 1:00, give teams who have to find food more than 40 minutes to eat, order enough food for the moderators who are being paid in food, and order some drinks to go with that food.
I'll second all of these notions. I heard minimal complaints about the set - certainly nothing to email the editors over, although I was on stats so I didn't really see a ton of questions - and the scores coming back to me were certainly very impressive. From a "there was quizbowl played" standpoint, this tournament was an excellent event.

But from a logistics standpoint, there were numerous things that could have been improved. Reinstein listed almost all of them above, so I'll simply mention that a more careful attention to these details at future tournaments will result in a smoother, faster, and generally improved tournament. As tournament directors, we live and learn.

One thing not otherwise mentioned - lunch after Round 6 is a bad idea, and this is another point of empirical evidence against it. It certainly wasn't a total disaster, from what little I heard, but it would have been better after 5.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

What is wrong with lunch later than round 5? I've run high school tournaments where we went to lunch after round 7 and it worked perfectly.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It wrote:What is wrong with lunch later than round 5? I've run high school tournaments where we went to lunch after round 7 and it worked perfectly.
Every tournament I've been to runs into the end of lunch 5 at a good time for lunch - somewhere between 11:30 AM and noon for the quick tourneys, noon and 1 for the not-so-quick. Past that, unless you're running a 14+ game tournament (unlikely at high school level), lunch after 5 doesn't create too long of a break between lunch and dinner, so there's no real benefit to running lunch after 6 compared to 5. Compare that to the possible cost - announcing lunch after 6 rounds exposes you to a longer possible cascading of the late room running later, which is exactly what happened yesterday. The last teams done with round 6 were told to be back after what was, for them, a 35 minute lunch break. No surprise that they were late coming back from lunch, and it pushed the rest of the tourney later. Lunch after 5 makes their lunch break maybe closer to 40 minutes, which would have sped up the cascading waits by a non-negligible amount.

tl;dr version: lunch after 6 or later can't help, could hurt.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

If you have a good staff and pick your lunch when there should be a natural break in the game anyway, I have found it works wonders to put lunch after round 7 in situations where you have 8 team pools and want to have a time to get caught up on stats. Instead of pausing the tournament twice to do lunch and hand out playoff schedules, I think we saved a lot of time doing it all at once.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by David Riley »

I agree that more attention should have been paid to logistics for what was otherwise a well-run tournament.

Then, I read for teams of varying ability levels within the novice classification, and my only complaint there were the number of teams that came in with the "committee conference" mentality, i.e., when they conferred on bonuses, it was as though they had unlimited time. I followed the timing rules but had to explain to several teams that the clock was ticking!

I also thought--and I know this is strange coming from me--that for a first tournament, bouncebacks might have been used. I got the impression that many of these students had never played before yesterday.

And, I understand that subapalooza was rampant at the middle school level.. :roll:
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dan-Don »

Ok, so I'll respond to the concerns for which I partially or totally responsible.
dtaylor4 wrote:How did playoffs work?
Final placement was determined only by a team's record with their playoff bracket. Playoff brackets featured two teams from each prelim bracket (ties for advancement to a higher playoff bracket were broken by PPG). The game against the team from your prelim bracket carried over, meaning each team started the playoffs with either a 1-0 or 0-1 record. Any ties in record for final placement (besides first place) were broken by PPG within playoff bracket. Belvidere North left early and forfeited their playoff games. Points scored against Belvidere North were not counted when calculating PPG for final placement. For first place, IMSA A, IMSA, B and Loyola A wound up tied in the playoffs at 2-1. Since IMSA A had better statistics, IMSA B and Loyola A played packet 12 for the chance to play IMSA A in the final. Loyola A won this game and proceeded to win round 13 against IMSA A to win the tournament.
Westwon wrote:the level of competition was significantly higher than I expected
Yeah, my easing up on the eligibility restrictions (as opposed to my mirror FNT last year where no team broke 18 ppb), was probably one of the better things I decided to do. I'm very happy that the ceiling on ppb was around 22-23 and went down very neatly from there.
Westwon wrote:Hopefully, the next time Northwestern hosts a tournament, they will find enough moderators, find enough laptops or print some questions
This was a direct result of several staffers canceling at the last minute or not showing up at all. In the future, I will have the foresight to arrange for extra laptops and print copies of questions in case this happens again. Thanks to Coach Reinstein for volunteering to read in place of one of the staffers who didn't show up, as well Coach Prince for volunteering to read when I decided it would be better for someone from Northwestern (me) to stay in the stats room and juggle the logistics of the two tournaments happening simultaneously as opposed to reading. It was much appreciated. I'm extremely glad to hear that there no problems with the various freshmen and sophomores from Northwestern that were moderating for the first time in their lives yesterday. Job well done to them.
Weston wrote: inform moderators about whether negs or bouncebacks are being used,
I did include this information in the invitation email. However, I would have also liked to have a coaches/moderators meeting before starting the tournament to go over these things.
David Riley wrote:And, I understand that subapalooza was rampant at the middle school level.. :roll:
Only for St. Raymond team really. But yes it is a great disservice to players when coaches bring 7 or 8 players and only register one team.

Finally, I'd like to address something that never really occurred to me until it came time to bracket this tournament. I believe coaches have a duty to keep TDs informed of any roster changes that might affect seeding and bracket placement. In terms of ppb, the three best teams wound up in one prelim bracket. Schools who did a good job of this (whether by posting or talking to me directly) include Loyola, New Trier, and IMSA. However, I had reason to believe that Barrington A and St. Ignatius were all deserving of high seeds as well. This is not meant to call those coaches out; this is more a general message for coaches everywhere.

All other compliments or complaints regarding the late start, the lunch issues, format issues, lack of a coaches meeting, or whatever else has been touched on so far should be directed to the Tournament Director, Anant.
Dan Donohue, Saint Viator ('10), Northwestern ('14), NAQT
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Stained Diviner »

Thanks for replying, Dan. I know that the Northwestern program is capable of running a good tournament, and we plan on attending tournaments there in the future. It is true, to the best of my knowledge, that some new moderators did a good job. I am glad that you are able to admit mistakes were made.

As far as when to have lunch, it is possible to have lunch after round six (and possibly even round seven) in certain cases. Given that this tournament got off to a slow start and featured a lot of young high school students playing their first tournament ever, lunch after round five should have been a no-brainer in this case. (Younger students is a factor because quizbowl diehards are more focused on question quality and playing lots of matches, while many newbies tend to be focused on being treated humanely.)
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Charbroil »

Westwon wrote: (Younger students is a factor because quizbowl diehards are more focused on question quality and playing lots of matches, while many newbies tend to be focused on being treated humanely.)
I mean, I personally don't see anything "inhumane" about starting lunch after round six or seven, assuming that the tournament begins around 9 and runs on time. That said, I would probably agree that fixing lunch around 12:00-12:30 makes sense.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by TheDoctor »

I'm with Brad on this. I've seen a lot of people attempt to run lunch after round 6 at high school tournaments, and it's not been well received by teams. In addition to the issues raised by Brad's post, later lunches often lead to droopy, lethargic teams in the later morning rounds. Particularly if you're dealing with untested moderators whose reading style may lead to longer games, it's best in my experience to plan for lunch after 5.
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Re: Northwestern University "Wake Up Call" (10/16/2010)

Post by Dan-Don »

In order to facilitate a more productive discussion of the actual running of Northwestern University's Wake-Up Call tournament, could the mods please move the "when should lunch be?" discussion into theory?
Dan Donohue, Saint Viator ('10), Northwestern ('14), NAQT
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