Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby ScoBo » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:45 pm

Deesy Does It wrote:No they aren't, but I can't see any excuse not to try to emulate things like the PACE style sets VCU produces or other good high school events (5-6 lines 12 TNR).

While I obviously want to see pyramidal questions in Missouri, I think that full 5-6 line questions in the MSHSAA format would be a quick way to turn schools away from questions like this because of how long the games would become.

Games already run 40-50 minutes with 2-3 line questions, 20% computation, and bonuses heavy on binary knowledge (e.g. given a work, name the author). Doubling tossup length, writing actual bonuses, and keeping in mind how slow the vast majority of MSHSAA's readers are, games will easily last over an hour, and I don't see many teams liking this change. One example of this happening was UMR's Spring tournament in 2007. Our questions were generally around 4.5 to 5.5 lines and even with experienced readers I'm pretty sure it took at least an hour a game. (Chadbourne, could you confirm this?)

Also, regarding getting longer questions into the MSHSAA state series - it's not going to happen. Shawn was forced to shorten his questions to no longer than 3 lines this year, which is about as long as you're going to get to keep games at a reasonable length.

-edit: added emphasis to first statement
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:58 pm

My point is that I don't think there's any real excuse for the format forcing out good writing practices.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Matt Weiner » Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:18 pm

Deesy Does It wrote:My point is that I don't think there's any real excuse for the format forcing out good writing practices.


It is pretty much an either/or scenario. Having 10 calculation tossups in a game is not good quizbowl. Having 3 line tossups is not good quizbowl. You can have good quizbowl, or the current MSHSAA rules, but you can't have both. Trying to shoehorn them together will be a huge waste of time. Get the format changed instead.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Mechanical Beasts » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:30 pm

ihavenoidea wrote:
Deesy Does It wrote:No they aren't, but I can't see any excuse not to try to emulate things like the PACE style sets VCU produces or other good high school events (5-6 lines 12 TNR).


Of course that would be the ideal, but would MSHSAA accept those questions? I was more under the impression that they'd only accept 2 - 3 line questions with inordinate amounts of computation.


Right, but isn't your idea "form an organization that provides great questions for free so they have to take our bid and give their students our great questions" instead of "form an organization that produces awful questions in an awful distribution, which they would pay Bryce Avery's rate for, but give them to them for free?" You accomplish nothing by giving them a free source of dreck.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Yellow-throated Honeyeater » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:51 pm

The distribution is not set by the writer. It is set by MSHSAA.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:59 pm

Yeah, as long as that is a MSHSAA mandated distribution you are required to use it, although some writers have getten around this to negative effect by labeling something a subject it isn't.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby ihavenoidea » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:35 am

everyday847 wrote:
ihavenoidea wrote:
Deesy Does It wrote:No they aren't, but I can't see any excuse not to try to emulate things like the PACE style sets VCU produces or other good high school events (5-6 lines 12 TNR).


Of course that would be the ideal, but would MSHSAA accept those questions? I was more under the impression that they'd only accept 2 - 3 line questions with inordinate amounts of computation.


Right, but isn't your idea "form an organization that provides great questions for free so they have to take our bid and give their students our great questions" instead of "form an organization that produces awful questions in an awful distribution, which they would pay Bryce Avery's rate for, but give them to them for free?" You accomplish nothing by giving them a free source of dreck.



No, the idea is "form an organization that provides the best possible questions under the strict formats of the MSHSAA, then work to change the format from within"

Certainly the "best possible questions" are better than the stuff MSHSAA will be handed by Questions Galore, yet they will not be up-to-par with the high quality writing of PACE NSC simply because of the MSHSAA restrictions.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Matt Weiner » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:37 am

There is no such thing as a good 3-line tossup. Providing "bad questions" instead of "questions that make people gouge their eyes out" is not a good use of your time.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby ihavenoidea » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:41 am

Matt Weiner wrote:There is no such thing as a good 3-line tossup. Providing "bad questions" instead of "questions that make people gouge their eyes out" is not a good use of your time.


Where is the line between good questions and bad questions drawn? I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that there is a gradual change rather than a sudden jump from bad questions to good.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby STPickrell » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:56 am

Coming into confirm that I was told to keep it under 3 lines 12 point TNR.

My own opinion is that it is better to have everyone playing on bad or merely passable as opposed to utter dreck. From there, further change can be effected but it must be Missouri coaches taking the lead.

It's the old is half a loaf better than none question.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby theattachment » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:46 am

ihavenoidea wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:There is no such thing as a good 3-line tossup. Providing "bad questions" instead of "questions that make people gouge their eyes out" is not a good use of your time.


Where is the line between good questions and bad questions drawn? I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that there is a gradual change rather than a sudden jump from bad questions to good.


Agreed. You can very easily have a three-line question that contains more than one clue. It would have to be densely written and certainly isn't ideal, but with short sentences a three-line question can include three clues. I fail to see how having three clues, particularly if they're in pyramidal order, constitutes bad quizbowl instead of just "less good" quizbowl.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Matt Weiner » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:34 pm

theattachment wrote:Agreed. You can very easily have a three-line question that contains more than one clue. It would have to be densely written and certainly isn't ideal, but with short sentences a three-line question can include three clues. I fail to see how having three clues, particularly if they're in pyramidal order, constitutes bad quizbowl instead of just "less good" quizbowl.


No, this is not how it works. You cannot distinguish teams, especially at a state championship level, with three clues. Do you think six lines is the standard in PACE and ACF because people just love making questions longer than they need to be? Do you think NAQT, with its timed format and avowed love of short questions, writes five line tossups because they like subverting their own principles? If three clues could possibly be good quizbowl, there would be any example whatsoever of remotely good quizbowl with three-clue tossups. There is not.

Stop making deals with the devil and start getting the people who think the MSHSAA distribution and format are worth saving out of power in Missouri quizbowl.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby David Riley » Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:32 pm

While I agree with Messrs. Dees, Weiner, et al., there is one other variable in this equation that hasn't been noted yet:

Regardless of format or question type, the proponents of heretofore acknowledged good quizbowl are generally people from strong academic backgrounds.

If (most of) Missouri is anything like (most of) Illinois, I think part of the resistance to change is lack of academic rigor in the curricula. Because of this, quiz bowl is viewed as a variety of Trivial Pursuit, and they see no reason to change it because they are happy with things the way they are. I've moderated matches in Illinois between weak teams with good questions, and in many cases questions were not answered because the teams did not know what many of us would consider a very basic cultural literacy (whether youy accept Hirsch or not). Of course, the problem stems from when these peope try to restrict teams and players that do work hard. Fortunately, we've found loopholes around this in Illinois.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Deckard Cain » Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:15 pm

ScoBo22687 wrote:Games already run 40-50 minutes with 2-3 line questions, 20% computation, and bonuses heavy on binary knowledge (e.g. given a work, name the author). Doubling tossup length, writing actual bonuses, and keeping in mind how slow the vast majority of MSHSAA's readers are, games will easily last over an hour, and I don't see many teams liking this change. One example of this happening was UMR's Spring tournament in 2007. Our questions were generally around 4.5 to 5.5 lines and even with experienced readers I'm pretty sure it took at least an hour a game. (Chadbourne, could you confirm this?)


Questions at the 2007 Missouri S&T Spring tournament probably averaged 4.5 lines in 12-point TNR, or about the length of NAQT IS tossups, and the average game lasted somewhere around 70 minutes. The 2008 edition had shorter questions coming mostly from an NAQT A-set, so probably around 3.5 lines, and the average game lasted around 55 minutes. Four-line tossups in a Missouri-format match is probably doable in an hour by an experienced moderating staff.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Deckard Cain » Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:25 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:
theattachment wrote:Agreed. You can very easily have a three-line question that contains more than one clue. It would have to be densely written and certainly isn't ideal, but with short sentences a three-line question can include three clues. I fail to see how having three clues, particularly if they're in pyramidal order, constitutes bad quizbowl instead of just "less good" quizbowl.


No, this is not how it works. You cannot distinguish teams, especially at a state championship level, with three clues. Do you think six lines is the standard in PACE and ACF because people just love making questions longer than they need to be? Do you think NAQT, with its timed format and avowed love of short questions, writes five line tossups because they like subverting their own principles? If three clues could possibly be good quizbowl, there would be any example whatsoever of remotely good quizbowl with three-clue tossups. There is not.

Stop making deals with the devil and start getting the people who think the MSHSAA distribution and format are worth saving out of power in Missouri quizbowl.


While this is of course correct, it doesn't really tell the whole story. Changing the Missouri format is simply not an option at this time. Any change to the MSHSAA structure would have to be voted on by a majority of schools participating in MSHSAA Academic Competition. I believe I read somewhere that around 300 schools participate in an average year, so you'd need roughly 150 votes to change the Missouri format, assuming you could get it on the annual ballot in the first place. You'd be lucky to get ten. The same goes for removing quizbowl from MSHSAA's purview, assuming the MSHSAA by-laws even allow for this possibility. There's no demand for change coming from anywhere near a majority of MSHSAA participating schools, and until that happens we're stuck with what we have.

The best option, in my opinion, is expanding the amount of good quizbowl available in Missouri. Keep in mind that there are a vast majority of teams in this state that have no idea what good quizbowl is and think that the Missouri format is all that is out there. If we can reach out to some of these teams and convince them that the changes that all of us on this board would like to see are actually for the better, then and only then will we see any meaningful improvement. A group of Missourians dedicated to good quizbowl are working on this as we speak.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:02 am

Deckard Cain wrote:The best option, in my opinion, is expanding the amount of good quizbowl available in Missouri. Keep in mind that there are a vast majority of teams in this state that have no idea what good quizbowl is and think that the Missouri format is all that is out there. If we can reach out to some of these teams and convince them that the changes that all of us on this board would like to see are actually for the better, then and only then will we see any meaningful improvement. A group of Missourians dedicated to good quizbowl are working on this as we speak.


To further this idea the best idea in addition to exposing people to good quizbowl is to agitate for having the arbitrary rules on travel and competition removed completely. This would enable people to experience impeccably credentialed tournaments in other states (Why shouldn't teams be able to go to ABC, one of the oldest invitationals?) thus giving them a firmer basis for knowing what is better quizbowl than the proffered status quo? The only way to overcome ignorance of this sort is to gradually filter in the knowledge of something better and it seems to me that the best way to do that is to encourage those people who can import other formats to do so and then let the marketplace of ideas take its course.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Yellow-throated Honeyeater » Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:48 am

Matt--
I'm not sure that's entirely accurate.

In IHSA, there are three ways to make changes.
Certain rules are deemed of high importance to administrators. These mainly include rules involving the adoption or dropping of sports/activities, season and travel limitations, definitions of sports/activities, and policies that impact all sports/activities (which includes the rule that Sectional assignments are made on the basis of geography). Changes to these rules must be submitted by a Principal or Superintendent, approved for vote by a committee of Principals, and then voted on by all Principals whose schools are members of IHSA. There are about one thousand schools that belong to IHSA.

A lower level of rules are most of the ones dealing with match play, seeding procedures, and some tournament format issues. Changes to these rules can be proposed by anybody, and they must be approved by an Advisory Committee specific to the sport/activity consisting of coaches and administrators and by a Legislative Committee overseeing all sports/activities consisting of Principals.

An even lower level of rules are issues that the IHSA Administrator of that sport/activity deems are of no interest at all to any administrators, which the IHSA Administrator can make himself. I have never seen an Administrator abuse this power, since doing so would be a firing offense.

Using this structure, IHSA has changed its question distribution, the lengths of matches, the use of pool play, the seeding of teams, and a hundred other things without a statewide vote of Principals--such things have been approved by a committee of Principals that generally follows the recommendations of the Advisory Committee. (I have never been on the Advisory Committee but attend its meetings. David Riley has been on it, and Tom Egan is on it.) I believe that there have only been three times that all Principals have voted on Scholastic Bowl--when it was initially adopted by the IHSA in the mid-1980s, when a season limitation was imposed in the late 1990s, and when exceptions to the limitation were approved in the early 2000s.

Looking at past MSHSAA minutes, I get the sense that things work pretty much the same way. It looks like every year there are about ten changes that get made without a statewide vote of Principals, typically dealing with issues such as timeouts or protest procedures. While it would take a major effort to change the MSHSAA Definition of Quizbowl, that definition really doesn't say a whole lot, and there could be good quizbowl played within it. In fact, MSHSAA has ruled that NAQT and ACF fit their definition. What's really needed are changes that could be made by the MSHSAA Committee that has coaches on it. That committee can change the format and the questions. I'm not sure what their power is regarding the restrictions on travel and independent teams, but they have discussed it, so I'm assuming they have some power. If coaches who understand good quizbowl apply to get on that committee, and if the coaches on the committee learn about good quizbowl, then you will have good quizbowl.

In the meantime, Matt is correct that the best thing to do is offer a number of good independent tournaments in Missouri. Teams from Missouri are also welcome to come to Illinois, which is pretty much entirely within 250 miles and which contains some good tournaments.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Deckard Cain » Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:59 pm

I'll see if I can get clarification on this from someone on the Advisory Committee, but I do not believe they have the latitude to make the changes we are proposing.

The Advisory Committee can propose changes to rules without having to go to a statewide vote, but these have to be approved by MSHSAA proper (I'm not sure how this works exactly). Usually they are approved, but sometimes they are not. For example, this year the AdCo proposed adding a sectional round to the state series in which the top two teams from two neighboring districts compete in a round-robin with the top two teams advancing to state. This proposal also had the support of MACA, but MSHSAA refused to approve it. (Just as an aside, MSHSAA's reasoning for this decision revolved around their claim that "no other sport works this way," which is patently false, as Cross Country uses a system identical to the one proposed. This should tell you what kind of an organization we're dealing with here.) I have no reason to believe MSHSAA would be any more cooperative in changing the Missouri format or any other of the changes we would like to see.

However, it is my understanding that MSHSAA does not reject policies that pass a statewide vote of principals. This, I believe, is the best route to take to get MSHSAA's ridiculous policies changed. If we can convince enough schools that rules changes are needed, the changes could then be placed on the MSHSAA annual ballot. If the measures pass, MSHSAA's policies change. Now, the issue is convincing these schools who know nothing of good quizbowl that changes are needed. This can come through reaching out to these schools and showing them what good quizbowl is and why it is that way.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Yellow-throated Honeyeater » Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:43 pm

We've had the same thing happen on similar issues. Keep in mind that the proposal you mention would cost MSHSAA money, since they pay for questions by the round, they probably pay hosting fees every time any school hosts their matches, and they probably pay officials either by the match or by the day. When the higher-ups consider proposals, money is always a major factor.

Using fewer than 50 tossups per match would not cost them anything, so it is likely that MSHSAA would approve it if it got past the Advisory Committee. Additionally, MSHSAA seems to approve a new question writer every year, so there must be a fairly simple process for them to do that.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby at your pleasure » Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:51 pm

Idea for encouraging idependent tournaments: First, deal with MSHSAA restrictions on competition. Then, offer schools the oppourtunity to obtain questions for their tournaments for reduced cost. remeber, this is a state where the basic principles of good question writing are little known(compared to major centers of quizbowl) and it is likely than any curicuit that is created will need a certain amount of outisde support to get it up and running.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:29 pm

What do you mean by "First, deal with MSHSAA restrictions on competition."?
Also, one of the major problems with importing decent sets is that local tournament directors feel the need to host everything on 4-quarter (usually MSHSAA) format sets because since that is the official format of the state, anything else seems illegitimate. There is nothing actually preventing teams from hosting other formats, as NKC, Wash U, Truman State, and Rolla show, but the reason teams don't is simply because to them nothing else is legitimate. I think there are enough tournaments between NAQT, HSAPQ, and independently produced sets to create a legitimate circuits everywhere if those events are mirrored - however, nobody in Missouri thinks to do that because it involves a major change from what they're used to.
Basically in Missouri, the goal is to get more teams over that barrier of being uncomfortable or suspicious of standard formats and longer questions, get all the top teams to go to NAQT state, and start hosting multiple quality tournaments in the state so that these roots are firmly in place by the end of the year and then in the near future these good things can expand and improve much more easily.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby David Riley » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:13 am

Agreed. Within the past ten years or so, we've had an increase in the quality of Illinois tournaments--NAQT State, the Early Bird at U of I, and the New Trier Solo, to name a few. This year Auburn is adding the Harvard Mirror and I have high hopes for Brad's Decembrist and NIU Huskie Tournament. It can be done!
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Matt Weiner » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:19 pm

David Riley wrote:Agreed. Within the past ten years or so, we've had an increase in the quality of Illinois tournaments--NAQT State, the Early Bird at U of I, and the New Trier Solo, to name a few. This year Auburn is adding the Harvard Mirror and I have high hopes for Brad's Decembrist and NIU Huskie Tournament. It can be done!


It can be done because Illinois has at least some coaches who want good quizbowl, and does not, for the most part, penalize teams for advocating good quizbowl or attending good tournaments. The opposite is true in Missouri. The fundamental power that the MSHSAA has over teams (the ability to dictate ALL their quizbowl participation and enforce their rules by threatening a school's entire interscholastic competition program, including athletics) must be removed if any constructive change is to be achieved.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Jeremy Gibbs » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:59 pm

The Structure of SoCal Action wrote:
Deesy Does It wrote:I'd be shocked if MSHSAA were enthusiastic at the prospect of recent high school graduates writing for them, especially for a conglomerate that is not a real company. You would have to either organize under the veneer of an organization to get your best bet with this, and then either lie about your contributors and pay them under the table or probably have some problems with getting MSHSAA to approve something that unprofessional.


I wouldn't have any problems organizing under the guise of a company, although yeah it would require some signifcant effort to coordinate.




This is EXACTLY what we talked about. Doesn't anyone listen to me?

We will make this happen. We have two quality editors in our state that can make this work.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Matt Weiner » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:51 pm

Jeremy Gibbs wrote:This is EXACTLY what we talked about. Doesn't anyone listen to me?

We will make this happen. We have two quality editors in our state that can make this work.


Hey: Are you going to fix the distribution, the qualifying format, the no-getting-better rules, and the possibility of athletic sanctions?
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Mechanical Beasts » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:47 pm

Jeremy Gibbs wrote:
The Structure of SoCal Action wrote:I wouldn't have any problems organizing under the guise of a company, although yeah it would require some signifcant effort to coordinate.




This is EXACTLY what we talked about. Doesn't anyone listen to me?

We will make this happen. We have two quality editors in our state that can make this work.


I'm honestly not trying to be snarky; I'm just confused.

Isn't Questions Galore--not a company comprised of competent question writers like Auroni Gupta--providing your questions?

Or do you mean that this is exactly what you talked about, and you said "no, we'd rather have Questions Galore"?
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Yellow-throated Honeyeater » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:17 am

It seems obvious at this point that Mr. Gibbs is not going to respond to our questions or critiques--he's had several chances. It is not obvious from this distance whether he is not responding because he disagrees with most of the views expressed here or whether it is because he feels he can accomplish more by keeping things close to the vest.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Mechanical Beasts » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:03 am

Lime, Self and Society wrote:It seems obvious at this point that Mr. Gibbs is not going to respond to our questions or critiques--he's had several chances. It is not obvious from this distance whether he is not responding because he disagrees with most of the views expressed here or whether it is because he feels he can accomplish more by keeping things close to the vest.


Most of the reason I'm prompting him is because he says things like "doesn't anyone listen to me" as though he'd been talking at the meeting--and had told us that he had been--about giving the question contract to a competent, student-run company. Implying that he does, in fact, want to say things. If he doesn't, he shouldn't pretend that he does or wants to.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Deckard Cain » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:17 pm

everyday847 wrote:I'm honestly not trying to be snarky; I'm just confused.

Isn't Questions Galore--not a company comprised of competent question writers like Auroni Gupta--providing your questions?

Or do you mean that this is exactly what you talked about, and you said "no, we'd rather have Questions Galore"?


I'm assuming he is referring to a discussion that took place on the Missouri board, where he floated the possibility of having Questions Galore's district and state questions edited before their use in those tournaments. (One of the "two experienced editors" he is referring to is presumably me, as I offered to edit the set.)
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby scquizbowl » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:37 am

Wow, that's sad about what is happening in the state of Missouri. Playing in a unsanctioned tournament can get the whole sports program on probation (no playoffs)? That is one of the worst things I have ever heard.

If we had that 250 mile rule in SC, we wouldn't even be able to go to any Atlanta tournaments (forget about TN), and we'd have to stay in the Carolinas most of the season.

In our area (Lowcountry of South Carolina), there is no one state organization, but many tournaments are run which are glorified state championships. The University of South Carolina tournament could be considered one, with nearly every team that competes in this state (like Fox Creek, Sumter, and some of the smaller Upstate schools) going there, and Dorman could be considered an upstate event, with nearly every Upstate team, and most other teams from around the state.

We have some bad quizbowl in our area, like inside our county, using the same questions for several years in a row, but at least the questions are longer (2-3 lines :sad:), and there is actually some sort of knowledge that you have to know. Our local tournament run by the technical college here is another form of quiz bowl.

They ask about 80-100 questions, in each subject level, and have timed games between three teams in all subjects. For most of the teams in our area (except us, Academic Magnet, Goose Creek, Stratford, and the Charleston County teams only competing on Thursday nights in Jan-Feb), that is their only competition of the year. It is a slow tournament, and they don't even print results online, like every other tournament, instead throwing their stuff away.

It is a huge success, as they've drawn as many as 2,000 students, and it gets big coverage in the newspaper.

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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby at your pleasure » Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:26 pm

It is a huge success, as they've drawn as many as 2,000 students, and it gets big coverage in the newspaper.


And this is why good quizbowl is not more widespread.
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Re: Is high school quizbowl in Missouri salvageable?

Postby Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:05 pm

Wow, that's sad about what is happening in the state of Missouri. Playing in a unsanctioned tournament can get the whole sports program on probation (no playoffs)? That is one of the worst things I have ever heard.

If we had that 250 mile rule in SC, we wouldn't even be able to go to any Atlanta tournaments (forget about TN), and we'd have to stay in the Carolinas most of the season.

Just to clarify, sanctioning doesn't just mean no state playoffs - it means you can't play any sports game at any time as long as it's a MSHSAA sport, and in all likelyhood will get your district funding cut. Also, the 250 mile rule is measured from the state border closest to the event, and not from your school's location. That is why NKC was able to play you guys at Vanderbilt, as the Missouri bootheel is pretty close to Tennessee even though Kansas City is way way more than 250 miles away.
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