Caltech Technophobia Jr.

[manary]

The California Institute of Technology is proud to announce its annual high school quiz bowl tournament, Technophobia Jr.

Organizer/Contact: Micah Manary manary@caltech.edu
Respond by Date: Friday, October 10th, 2008. Late requests are subject to the organizer's discretion and a $10 late fee.

Time: 8:00am, Saturday October 25th, 2008
Place: Baxter Lecture Hall, Caltech, Pasadena, CA 91126
Price: $100 per team, -$10 for for each buzzer system brought, -$10 for each additional team, -$10 for each scorekeeper/timer brought (must not be on the team).
Format: This is an official NAQT tournament. NAQT format and eligibility rules apply. Check the rules: http://www.naqt.com/rules.html
FREE! Donut Breakfast Provided

See you there,
Micah Manary, California Institute of Technology Quiz Bowl

[Joe Romersa]

how many and which teams have registered so far?

[Joe Romersa]

Rankings (as far as i know)
1) Santa Monica A
2) Rancho Bernardo A
3) La Jolla A
4) Arcadia A

[ihavenoidea]

So Caltech, when a team clears the field by at least two games, they win the tournament. What was the necessity of the single elimination play off? RB is undefeated through out prelims and playoff round robin, yet they get 2nd because they lost one game to a team that had lost 2 games to them earlier in the day? (correct me if I'm wrong)

[cvdwightw]

So Caltech, when a team clears the field by at least two games, they win the tournament. What was the necessity of the single elimination play off? RB is undefeated through out prelims and playoff round robin, yet they get 2nd because they lost one game to a team that had lost 2 games to them earlier in the day? (correct me if I'm wrong)

This is ACF rules and not NAQT rules, though if I understand you correctly Caltech decided to add a single-elim playoff on top of the playoff round robin. Please see the Richard Montgomery tournament thread for why this is a bad idea. NAQT does not have an official stance on who wins tournaments, though for all the college tournaments it's that the top two teams play a final; if one team has a better record it's best 2-out-of-3 with a one game advantage for the team with the better record, otherwise it's one game.

If Caltech had announced that there would be a single-elim playoff at the end (how exactly did this happen? they only had 12 packets to work with!), then there's not much of a complaint. You lost, despite having the best record in the tournament (the ACF definition of the tournament winner) and a winning record against the "first place" team (the McCorquodale definition of the tournament winner), because the format did not favor you. It sucks, but it's not worth really complaining about. If Caltech out of the blue decided to add on a single-elim, then yeah, you got screwed over.

[ihavenoidea]

2 brackets of 8 for prelims, round robin. Reseed after lunch into two new brackets of 8. 1 plays 3, 5, 7. 2 plays 4, 6, 8 (essentially four brackets of four with top bracket being 1, 3, 5, 7 and bottom bracket being 10, 12, 14, 16). Then they reseed everyone. Top four goes into a single elimination playoff. 1v4, 2v3. Winner plays winner, loser plays loser. Essentially the top 4 is ranked from their performance in the single elimination only.

[cvdwightw]

2 brackets of 8 for prelims, round robin. Reseed after lunch into two new brackets of 8. 1 plays 3, 5, 7. 2 plays 4, 6, 8 (essentially four brackets of four with top bracket being 1, 3, 5, 7 and bottom bracket being 10, 12, 14, 16). Then they reseed everyone. Top four goes into a single elimination playoff. 1v4, 2v3. Winner plays winner, loser plays loser. Essentially the top 4 is ranked from their performance in the single elimination only.

This is amazing. "Let's copy every bad idea from the Richard Montgomery tournament, except the don't-actually-start-playoffs-until-some-ungodly-hour part." Like, did Keith quit RM quizbowl because he had to fly across the country to run the Caltech team?

[Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It]

Hah!

[warpoet]

So Caltech, when a team clears the field by at least two games, they win the tournament. What was the necessity of the single elimination play off? RB is undefeated through out prelims and playoff round robin, yet they get 2nd because they lost one game to a team that had lost 2 games to them earlier in the day? (correct me if I'm wrong)

That's the way CalTech always runs their tournaments, or sometimes without the second round robin...

[ihavenoidea]

That's the way CalTech always runs their tournaments, or sometimes without the second round robin...

That has nothing to do with the validity of the scheduling.

[warpoet]

That's the way CalTech always runs their tournaments, or sometimes without the second round robin...

That has nothing to do with the validity of the scheduling.

I know, man. I'm not complaining, but I know. But you guys have played at CalTech before, you know how it works as well as we do...

[ak47]

Let's not make too big of a deal about this. It was a solid final match, and Santa Monica came out on top in that game (deservedly so). Though I also find the scheduling/winner decision somewhat confusing and nonsensical, whatever happened happened. Onward we go.

[Joe Romersa]

Arcadia also got screwed over in the single-elim at CalTech two years ago. I'm going to argue against it if (and i doubt its going to happen) Tracy decides to do it like that.

My only other complaint about Technophobia was that the bracketing was a little unfair, but that was a little hard to foresee.
There were 3 Team As, 4 team B/Cs, and 1 only team in each bracket, so it wasn't too bad...

[warpoet]

Let's not make too big of a deal about this. It was a solid final match, and Santa Monica came out on top in that game (deservedly so). Though I also find the scheduling/winner decision somewhat confusing and nonsensical, whatever happened happened. Onward we go.

I just wish you hadn't taken the Art Book, I really could have used that...

[cvdwightw]

This:

That's the way CalTech always runs their tournaments, or sometimes without the second round robin...

is wrong. That may be the only way that this new leadership at Caltech knows how to run tournaments, because as far as I know they're all either new or from places like West Virginia where this kind of thing is common. It is not the way that Caltech "always" runs their tournaments, as Jordan or Noah would tell you if they found this thread. Single elimination just shouldn't happen with 16-team tournaments, ever. I think we all accept that it came down to the two best teams in the tournament and the one that played better in the game that was advertised as the finals won the tournament - that's not a problem, maybe the RB kids are a little bitter, but that's it. What is a problem is that a single elimination tournament had been run after a bracketed playoff round robin - essentially, the "playoff" round robin (you will note the word "playoff") wasn't really a playoff at all - in a clear violation of good quizbowl. Now, maybe Caltech doesn't know any better, in which case it's incumbent upon us to actually tell them this before they run the tournament.

[Alvin6226]

Better than... Ayn Rand That text was so small...I hope your copy is not in existence anymore?

[Ronnie the Bear]

or from places like West Virginia where this kind of thing is common.

That ain't how it is in West Virginia, either.

[warpoet]

That's the way CalTech always runs their tournaments, or sometimes without the second round robin...

it is not the way that Caltech "always" runs their tournaments, as Jordan or Noah would tell you if they found this thread.

My apologies, I misspeak. That's the way it's been at all the CalTech tournaments I have participated in.

[ihavenoidea]

Stats are here:

http://quizbowl.caltech.edu/results/200 ... dings.html

[cvdwightw]

or from places like West Virginia where this kind of thing is common.

That ain't how it is in West Virginia, either.

My bad, Fred.

To add more substantial commentary, why are there some rounds with 22 tossups heard and some with 24?

Also, congratulations to La Jolla B for hitting 180 points in every round, having a bonus conversion just a hair under 15, and going 1-6.

[ihavenoidea]

Their page explains that since they did not have enough clocks, the format they played with in the morning was untimed, while after noon (not accounted for in stats) was timed. I don't know how that accounts for the discrepancy though.

[Joe Romersa]

Our first game was timed, followed by all untimed games. I was wondering what was up with that...

[Alvin6226]

I had a room in which there was a clock, but it wasn't used. Twice.

[Kaisuopai]

Essentially, they read 24 tossups in the first round of the tournament, and then went with 22 tossups for all subsequent morning games. In the afternoon, the teams from bracket A played timed games in playoffs and bracket B stuck with untimed games. I'm happy that clocks weren't generally used, actually...some of our moderators were horribly slow readers, and couldn't get through 15 questions a game. Micah and Faith were lightning-fast, though. (If you're reading this, kudos to you both) :D

I'm slightly miffed that LJ B's top scorer had a higher PPG than me though. Still, she was definitely carrying the team, and promises to be really good.

Oh, yeah...Sarah Friggin' Palin owned. I will never say that again except in this context. >_>;

-Kai

[Joe Romersa]

Sarah Palin finally did something right.

We had a timed first round, where the reader from i think 237, read so slow we only got through 13 questions.

and Micah was a godly reader. So fast and so clear!

[manary]

I'm not averse to criticism at all. Nor am I very good at this. So, we won't do single elimination. Doesn't change the past, but will change the future (spring) tournament. Other than that problem, I hope it was OK.
You all can feel free to message me or email me with criticisms if you like. Also, the timer thing was we tried to get enough timers, didn't have them, but some people were confused so used the timer the first round. Our bad.

I was a freshman last year, there was only 1 dedicated person (matthew feldman) in QB, so he and I worked our butts of to get it somewhere. We are continuing to do that. Unfortunately, NO ONE else helps us (= anyone from the past). We have to beg anybody older than a sophomore to play for us, and usually they don't even if we give them cash (except for Jim thanks!). It may seem like Caltech used to be cool, and I'm sure it used to be better. Unfortunately no one gives us any hints on what to do, such as "Oh Micah, don't do single elimination." Where I come from (Missouri!) it's the norm, so I do what I know.

Concrete criticism is good, please send it to me. Telling me to make it more like Jordan or Noah or whoevertheblankelse used to do it is not helpful.

(This sounds meaner than I mean it - I'm not upset, and thank you all for actually helping me/feldman do this right.)

Thanks
Micah Manary

[cvdwightw]

I was a freshman last year, there was only 1 dedicated person (matthew feldman) in QB, so he and I worked our butts of to get it somewhere. We are continuing to do that. Unfortunately, NO ONE else helps us (= anyone from the past). We have to beg anybody older than a sophomore to play for us, and usually they don't even if we give them cash (except for Jim thanks!). It may seem like Caltech used to be cool, and I'm sure it used to be better. Unfortunately no one gives us any hints on what to do, such as "Oh Micah, don't do single elimination." Where I come from (Missouri!) it's the norm, so I do what I know.

Concrete criticism is good, please send it to me. Telling me to make it more like Jordan or Noah or whoevertheblankelse used to do it is not helpful.

Hey Micah,

There are a bunch of us in the area, and even more of us on this board, who would be able and willing to help you with any questions you might have. I don't think anyone is ignorant of most of the old Caltech people moving on, and it's great you're trying to rebuild. That said, Missouri is not the best place to look for ideas about quizbowl; again, I hypothesized that some of the "poor" ideas were the only kind of quizbowl you had known, and it turns out I was right!

In the future, if you have a great or not-so-great idea, look on this board to see how it's been received in California specifically (or other parts of the country, more generally); if you have a question about whether or not it would work, feel free to ask me or some of the other old people at other Southern California colleges or post on the board.