recfreq wrote:After hearing some rather uneventful biology questions over the last couple of years, I think I can safely say that biology question-writing in general lags behind writing in the physical sciences and math. Take the case of physics, one can find topics coming up in each of the sophmore-junior undergrad level courses in theoretical mechanics (Hamiltonian), E & M (vector potential), particle physics (Higgs boson), etc, but very seldom do you find comparable questions at the same level in the biology curriculum, like developmental bio, immunobio, genetics, etc. When questions do come up in those areas, they lack the clues that provide us with knowledge at the level of those undergrad courses.
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In general, I've found myself just enjoying listening to the physics and math questions more b/c they have more depth and asks about more interesting things. I remember ACF nats last year being ridiculously hard in the physical sciences, whereas all the bio TUs were pretty darn easy off the end of the 1st sentence or beginning of the 2nd. There just appears to be a trend against writing interesting questions on, say the pentose-phosphate shunt, or neurulation, or proteoglycan, or homologous recombination, or RNA interference. Those are not grad topics; I learned them in sophmore-junior level courses, and they are reasonable to ask, just as reasonable as Franck-Condon and Stern-Gerlach. Given that biology depts are the most diverse in the country (MCB, IB, PB in Berkeley, and something like 5 diff ones at UCLA--btw another proof that biochemistry is chemistry: our Chemistry & Biochemistry dept, also, they both study structure), it's hard to fathom not getting a more diverse set of questions and answers.
recfreq wrote:Finally, I just want to ask if medicine is biology. If the clues are clinical, i.e. based on symptoms and effects, I don't see them as being biological b/c there's no relevant _academic_ clues. If the clues are physiological, or based on molecular genetics, I'd be ok with it. But in general, as the USC WIT packets will attest, diseases are easy ways to dodge the bio distribution, b/c you just copy from a clinical handbook. It's also not very interesting. Bio players, let us know how you feel, but I don't need another question on gonerhea. I know what it is, and it's not biology. (It's also not really taught until med school.) In an effort to mimick the interest of the physical sciences and math crowd, we should strive for more mechanistic, molecular, physiological clues that tell us about the underlying processes involved instead of relying on memorizing viruses and diseases. I think those outside the field would prefer hearing such questions, just as I'd prefer hearing about Liouville's thm and parity.
I guess I would prefer 1/1 clinical science and 1/1 basic science in biomedical topics to be fair.
I don't see Gleevec as an unacceptable answer for the hard part of a bonus
To those who hate taxonomy questions, how do you propose addressing natural history/biogeophysical sciences/paleo while using askable topics?
E.T. Chuck wrote:It is a challenge to write a very good "fundamental" biology question, and as someone who has dealt with these issues before, I recognize how hard it can be.
grapesmoker wrote:I would love to write more sophisticated questions, but I am afraid of botching it. If Ray (or others) could recommend to me some good sources for such questions, I'll do my best to come up with more of them in future packets.
myamphigory wrote:(I recall Selene Koo's ACF Nationals tossup on noted compound (mentioned in six of my undergrad classes) cisplatin being met with pearl-clutching.)
recfreq wrote:It can be regulated by phosphorylation of a serine residue on eIF2,
recfreq wrote: which inhibits exchange of bound GDP for GTP, disrupting formation of the i ternary complex. This process is initiated by eIF4E binding to 7-methylguanylate, and eIF4A scanning for the Kozak sequence surrounding the start site, recognition of which leads to eIF2 and eIF5 GTP hydrolysis, the latter recruiting the eIF6-bound 60S subunit.
recfreq wrote:Hydrolysis of EF1-alpha-GTP ejects unacylated adaptors from the E site and positions the aminoacyl-tRNA in the A site close to that in the P site, but only if its anticodon matches the mRNA codon.
recfreq finally wrote: FTP name this process by which the ribosome makes proteins from messenger RNA, taking place after transcription.
:. translation
cvdwightw wrote:So to answer Jerry's question, there are definitely mid-level clues in the question, although they probably don't seem that way to non-biologists.
As for the diversity of question-writing for biology, I agree there is a lot of diversity in topics covered in "biology". On the other hand, I don't know how many evolutionary-developmental biologists there are there. I'd enjoy a question that is disciplinarily "biogeophysical chemistry" if such a thing exists (and actually I'm pretty sure there is at least one such area)... but then we're really hitting a very esoteric portion of science.
Maybe it is the nature in which people are forced to learn biology compared to the physical sciences. When it comes to learning taxa or recognizing principles with infection, there are mechanisms that one cannot really "apply" when it comes to an undergraduate education. I'm sure one could learn how to run a western blot (and you've probably seen many questions already written on WB's) but that sounds much more boring than some unsolved problem in mathematics... because it is.
Medicine should be covered under science, but obviously it should not predominate the biology portion of any syllabus (at least acknowledge botany and zoology). I guess I would prefer 1/1 clinical science and 1/1 basic science in biomedical topics to be fair. But one could go on writing an entire packet on biomedical sciences if you are dedicated to learning the literature.
Granted we don't ask many questions on pharmacy or nursing concepts, but I leave that to a different discussion.
grapesmoker wrote:Actually, I think the mitochondria question is not very good. The Margulis/endosymbiosis clue is way too early. Of course, for all I know, the answer could be chloroplasts, but if I was playing against a team with any biology knowledge and they hadn't gotten it yet, I would be buzzing then. I would put that clue towards the end of the question since it's something well-known to non-biologists.
I think one of the factors that contributed to this gap of which Ray speaks is the fact that some of the most active science writers on the circuit are physicists. Certainly Seth Teitler and myself are far better qualified to write physics than biology. When I have to write a bio question, I almost invariably err on the side of something I've heard of, just because I have no idea if anything else is gettable.
I would love to write more sophisticated questions, but I am afraid of botching it. If Ray (or others) could recommend to me some good sources for such questions, I'll do my best to come up with more of them in future packets.
vandyhawk wrote:As a biomedical engineer, I've taken a boatload of classes with bio in the title somewhere, but I think I've let myself fall in the trap of only writing about stuff that has come up before. It's sometimes hard for me to judge what would be gettable by someone who has only taken, say, intro bio, so like Jerry said, I tend to default to easier, more canonical stuff. That's not to say I don't try to include interesting clues, but I think I need to try harder at that.
The mitochondria question above is pretty bad. As soon as I heard "porins" and "outer membrane" I'd buzz. I honestly feel like taxonomy questions are the worst bio questions, though. Sure, a lot of people learn that info in high school, but does anyone actually cover that in college level courses anymore? I know I've never come across it here. It seems like non-science people who are forced to write science can come up with a taxonomy question pretty easily, and maybe asnwer some too, but I just don't see the value. Obviously taxonomy won't go away, but multiple tossups or bonuses in the subject in a given tournament is just too much.
As far as clinical questions, I don't mind some clinical clues in a tossup about an organ or disease or whatever, but there should be other info (e.g. molecular, structual aspects) as well, and I don't think answers should be allowed that one would only really learn in med school. In some packet from the archive I looked over recently (maybe from BOB?), there was a bonus on cancer drugs. I've taken advanced cancer biology, and I would've been able to get 10 points on the bonus for Taxol. I had heard of another answer, Gleevec, though would not have been able to pull it out. That kind of question is just unacceptable unless it's a tournament for med students. Now asking about p53, though, is a welcome trend, and mabye at ACF Nats this year I can throw in some more related things since those kinds of pathways are being taught to undergrads now too.
I think I've heard questions on RNAi and proteoglycan before at ACF Nats, but I'm not positive on that. I know I've heard a Western blot tossup a few years ago at ACF regs, and too many electrophoresis ones. I'd love to hear more questions on newer experimental techniques (RNAi, RT-PCR, quantum dots, ELISA), as well as some different biochem areas like gluconeogenesis that don't get the same coverage as glycolysis and the electron transport chain.
As far as separating clinical from basic science in the bio distribution, I don't know if that's the best idea. Often, a good question will combine aspects of both areas, and if people start trying to write truly "clinical" questions, that could lead to even more med school-ish questions, which I don't think anyone wants. At least, I don't think you guys want me to crack open our "clinical correlations" lectures from when I took physiology from the med school. A tournament editor can just try to make sure there's a good balance throughout the set.
Those are my thoughts at the moment. I'll be interested to see what Jason has to say.
myamphigory wrote:A few comments:
-I don't see Gleevec as an unacceptable answer for the hard part of a bonus. Granted, I'm in a cancer biology program at Chicago, where Janet Rowley, whose work on the Philadelphia chromosome led to the development of Gleevec, works, so I may be biased here. I encountered Gleevec in several undergrad classes (cancer biology and pharmacology), and it's regularly mentioned by anyone talking about targeted therapies, modern drug development, and (sometimes) pharmacogenetics. It's arguable that the development of Gleevec is the most important story in the last decade of pharmacology.
-In part, at least, the reason people have been unwilling to write a lot of biology questions on challenging or otherwise new (to quizbowl) topics is that, when we've tried to do that before, other people have bitched about it. (I recall Selene Koo's ACF Nationals tossup on noted compound (mentioned in six of my undergrad classes) cisplatin being met with pearl-clutching.)
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-To those who hate taxonomy questions, how do you propose addressing natural history/biogeophysical sciences/paleo while using askable topics? These topics are a part of biology, too.
-There are certainly questions being asked about newer experimental techniques; I know I've both heard and written questions on RNAi and ELISA. It's nice to see these sorts of things (also, p53, Holliday junctions, etc.--can tossups on Rad51 be far behind?), but on the other hand, while I've heard p53 come up more over the past few years, I can't say I've heard any great questions on it. I'd rather hear good questions than novel answers (though ideally both should be possible).
QuizBowlRonin wrote:myamphigory wrote:I too, work in DNA damage response but I unfortunately can't tell you much about what Rad51 does. Perhaps we should start with BRCA1/2?
QuizBowlRonin wrote:I was terribly disappointed by the fact in the finals round that Selene, Subash, Susan, and Seth did not get tossups that I was sure that one of the three would get on the first line – this is not a reflection of their lack of skill as it is a reflection of poor editing and clue-writing on my part.
QuizBowlRonin wrote:Therefore, tossups like Franck-Condon or RNA interference, while written in a pyramidal manner consistent with ACF values, do not successfully differentiate teams that know their material versus those that do not.
recfreq wrote: I don't know what S matrix is, but I suspect it isn't as important relative to quantum physics as pentose phosphate shunt relative to biochemistry. If it's that important, I guess I just haven't done the reading; 7/8 of my quantum book is unread, and I'll get back to you when I see the phrase "S matrix."
grapesmoker wrote:The S is for "scattering." It's basically a matrix that connects before and after states for some quantum process. I think it was a fine question; it's just that in my class the professor never gave it a name (perhaps he called it the transfer matrix or something, I seem to remember that name).
recfreq wrote:Jason, I don't recall them not getting the bio
recfreq wrote:In general, though, isn't it good to have a mix of questions at the nats level of both difficult and easy questions, to probe the breadth of certain players as well. E.g. one could easily write a good, clue-laden question on the glyoxylate cycle--there're at least 4 pages in Stryer. Testing for that knowledge is different from testing whether you could get Calvin cycle really early, so I don't know if it's a good idea to abandon it altogether at the nats level. (At the fall level, yes, let's ban it.)
recfreq wrote:I'm just banking on the fact that since most bio people have taken biochem, that pentose-phosphate would still be knowable by the majority of the target audience.
selene wrote:Similarly, with the ACF Fall set this year, the physical science questions seemed to have more difficult pyrimidality than the biological science questions; the "mitochondrion" question is *way* more gettable in the middle than the "Brownian motion" question.
selene wrote:That was also the ACF Nationals that featured the "Gilman reagents" tossup that I believe no one in the whole tournament got (I didn't write that one). Now, there may be some off chance that someone will find the tossup interesting despite not getting it.
setht wrote:I don't see the point of writing on glyoxylate cycle rather than acetyl-CoA. I also think you're much more likely to get teams interested in new information about a topic they've heard of then in new information on a topic they've never heard of.
setht wrote:But if biochem classes don't pop up until, say, the 3rd year, then the relevant question is "how many teams have an advanced bio player," and at this point I am confident that the majority of the teams at pretty much every tournament (including ACF Nationals) do not fit the bill.
mattreece wrote:Next, since several people have been saying that the physical sciences questions at ACF Nationals 2005 were much harder than the biological science questions: to what extent was this true within physics? I am aware of the complaints about "S-matrix" and "fluctuation-dissipation theorem," and I admit those were poor choices for a tossup. Were there a lot of other examples, or did these two just stand out? I want to make sure I don't cause similar problems at future tournaments.
recfreq wrote:acetyl coA is involved in _everything_, including beta oxidation, lipid synthesis, etc, whereas glyoxylate cycle is it's own process. It'd be like writing glucose vs. glycolysis, they're just different things, even though one happens to appear in the other. E.g. glyoxylate cycle uses diff enzymes, some of which are analogous to Krebs, but some not, and converts Krebs intermediates into carbohydrates, basically another shunt. Also, we have questions on both author and book she's primarily known for, right? So given glyoxylate is semi-well-known, I don't see inherently why it shouldn't come up as TU answer, but only at, say, ACF nats. But I _do_ think for usual tournaments, it's better to have the easier thing come up, and in this case, either acetyl coA or Krebs.
recfreq wrote:I still can't get over the greatness of the glutamate question, though, and if you're responsible, I'd just like to give you a big warm hug.
cvdwightw wrote: is it good to have people answering biology questions based on things they learned outside biology (also e.g. Selene's example with "gonorrhea")?
grapesmoker wrote:cvdwightw wrote: is it good to have people answering biology questions based on things they learned outside biology (also e.g. Selene's example with "gonorrhea")?
Sure it is. Why not? After all, it's not like you're answering based on a "sounds like" clue or something stupid; you're answering based on real knowledge that you acquired in another context. Doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with that. In fact, it's good.
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