2012 SCT individual question discussion

Old college threads.

Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Papa's in the House » Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:09 pm

Sun Devil Student wrote:The bonuses generally seemed very inconsistent in their difficulty level. About a quarter of the bonuses had no discernible easy part. I don't have the set in front of me, so I don't have specific examples.

I have no idea what you're talking about. The D1 set had at least 1 clear easy part in every bonus (though sometimes the other 2 parts varied).
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Fond du lac operon » Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:12 pm

Our team 10'd that name-change bonus (we got Boof Bonser but not the other two) but it wasn't a very good question, I don't think -- there were way less obscure parts that could have been asked instead of a middleweight boxer who retired well before most DII players were born, and a mediocre basketball player from the early '80s. I don't know how Alabama A did on that bonus, but it's worth noting that my team were hardly ignorant of sports trivia. I would have done something like Metta World Peace/Boof/Kareem there.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby cvdwightw » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:08 pm

Sun Devil Student wrote:2) A common-link tossup on syphilis studies involving human subjects, which then accepted Tuskegee as an answer even though that was only one of several studies mentioned. My teammate was negged after being mystified when he was prompted on "human scientific studies" or something like that. If the tossup had been written as "this disease was the subject of X study etc" instead of "this kind of study" or if the answer had been simply "studies with human subjects/accept all equivalents like 'clinical trial' etc" that would have helped us. I don't know how many other teams are affected.
Actually, I very much enjoyed this tossup and thought it was an exemplar of how to get the "Andrew Hart style wacky common link tossup" right - every clue in that question (or at least every one I heard) unambiguously referred to a syphilis study, you could buzz with confidence off the first clue, and there were no weird descriptional modifiers that needed to be added to answers. Both of your suggestions for "improving" this tossup would, in my opinion, severely detract from it (in the first case, because the key to lateraling the tossup if you didn't have real knowledge was realizing that the common link was a disease; in the second, because that's the exact kind of answer line that a "terrible Andrew Hart style wacky common link tossup" would have).
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby 49-Mile Scenic Drive » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:14 pm

I will start out by saying I very much enjoyed the Benzene bonus "Ortho" "Kekule" and "Friedel-Crafts" in that order. It felt great to 30 something I had just went over in class the week before.

However I had a particular problem with 2 questions from DII because I thought the power marks were VERY generous.

The first one that comes to mind is the Auguste Rodin toss-up. It mentioned Burghers of Calais(which for some stupid reason I didn't buzz on and should be slapped for it) then Paolo and Francesca, which I finally buzzed on. I was informed it was still a power. I don't think I can even remember Burghers of Calais being in powermark at HSNCT when I played. I'd be interested to see this toss-up and see how far the powermark actually goes.

Another toss-up, and this just may be one of those "you just know about it greatly" deals (input from the more experienced players is welcomed) was the toss-up on the Mughal Dynasty. I buzzed on the Battle of Panipat clue and was informed that was still a power as well. My initial gut feeling was that I just know a decent bit on the Mughals from being a former history major and this question isn't as generous as I made it out to be.

DISCLAIMER: I'm really not trying to sound arrogant if it comes off as such. I realize I've been playing this game for a while and have heard things come up tons of times. This is just my personal opinion.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:22 pm

DII SCT round 5 wrote:One work by this artist shows Eustache de Saint-Pierre, one of the men who surrendered his city to Edward III. That work, which shows six barefoot men with nooses on their necks, is ~The Burghers of Calais~. He also showed Paolo and Francesca embracing amid an array of other figures on one of the two massive, bronze (*) doors of his ~The Gates of Hell~. For 10 points--name this French sculptor of ~The Kiss~ and ~The Thinker~.


DII SCT round 12 wrote:The Sayyid brothers were kingmakers during this dynasty that was interrupted early on by the Suri Dynasty. Its decline led to the rise of the Maratha Confederacy. Its first ruler won the Battle of Panipat, and its last ruler was deposed after the (*) Sepoy Mutiny. During this dynasty the Red Fort and the Taj Mahal were built. For 10 points--name this Islamic empire based in India that was ruled by Akbar and Babur.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Dr. Loki Skylizard, Thoracic Surgeon » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:23 pm

49-Mile Scenic Drive wrote:The first one that comes to mind is the Auguste Rodin toss-up. It mentioned Burghers of Calais(which for some stupid reason I didn't buzz on and should be slapped for it) then Paolo and Francesca, which I finally buzzed on. I was informed it was still a power. I don't think I can even remember Burghers of Calais being in powermark at HSNCT when I played. I'd be interested to see this toss-up and see how far the powermark actually goes.

D2 SCT is supposed to be easier than HSNCT.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Black-throated Antshrike » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:25 pm

49-Mile Scenic Drive wrote:I will start out by saying I very much enjoyed the Benzene bonus "Ortho" "Kekule" and "Friedel-Crafts" in that order. It felt great to 30 something I had just went over in class the week before.

However I had a particular problem with 2 questions from DII because I thought the power marks were VERY generous.

The first one that comes to mind is the Auguste Rodin toss-up. It mentioned Burghers of Calais(which for some stupid reason I didn't buzz on and should be slapped for it) then Paolo and Francesca, which I finally buzzed on. I was informed it was still a power. I don't think I can even remember Burghers of Calais being in powermark at HSNCT when I played. I'd be interested to see this toss-up and see how far the powermark actually goes.

Another toss-up, and this just may be one of those "you just know about it greatly" deals (input from the more experienced players is welcomed) was the toss-up on the Mughal Dynasty. I buzzed on the Battle of Panipat clue and was informed that was still a power as well. My initial gut feeling was that I just know a decent bit on the Mughals from being a former history major and this question isn't as generous as I made it out to be.

DISCLAIMER: I'm really not trying to sound arrogant if it comes off as such. I realize I've been playing this game for a while and have heard things come up tons of times. This is just my personal opinion.


Don't know about the former, but I would think the end of power would be right before Pinipat for Mughal empire. I seem to remember that coming up a lot in highschool sets
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Smuttynose Island » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:33 pm

Andrew Jackson's Compatriot wrote:Don't know about the former, but I would think the end of power would be right before Pinipat for Mughal empire. I seem to remember that coming up a lot in highschool sets


You are correct that the Battle of Panipat comes up a lot in HS TUs; however you are incorrect in your implied claim that that means it should be outside of power in a DII SCT set. The Battle of Panipat is an early clue in HS sets and was a middle clue in this TU that was on an answerline that is, by virtue of being on Indian history a topic that many novice QBers will have little experience with, harder than a lot of other history answerlines. It's perfectly okay for Panipat to be within power here.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Ukonvasara » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:37 pm

Fred wrote:
49-Mile Scenic Drive wrote:The first one that comes to mind is the Auguste Rodin toss-up. It mentioned Burghers of Calais(which for some stupid reason I didn't buzz on and should be slapped for it) then Paolo and Francesca, which I finally buzzed on. I was informed it was still a power. I don't think I can even remember Burghers of Calais being in powermark at HSNCT when I played. I'd be interested to see this toss-up and see how far the powermark actually goes.

D2 SCT is supposed to be easier than HSNCT.

Even still, though, that's pretty early to drop that title.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby 49-Mile Scenic Drive » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:44 pm

Fred wrote:D2 SCT is supposed to be easier than HSNCT.


:w-hat:

But seriously, assuming Fred meant no sarcasm, I had no clue that was the case.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Dr. Loki Skylizard, Thoracic Surgeon » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:47 pm

That's 100% serious, bro.

Also, in response to Rob: I'm not saying that Burghers of Calais is or isn't inherently early for that spot, I'm just saying that the "it's not in power at HSNCT" isn't a good argument, because D2 SCT is supposed to be easier than HSNCT.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Sun Devil Student » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:00 am

cvdwightw wrote:
Sun Devil Student wrote:2) A common-link tossup on syphilis studies involving human subjects, which then accepted Tuskegee as an answer even though that was only one of several studies mentioned. My teammate was negged after being mystified when he was prompted on "human scientific studies" or something like that. If the tossup had been written as "this disease was the subject of X study etc" instead of "this kind of study" or if the answer had been simply "studies with human subjects/accept all equivalents like 'clinical trial' etc" that would have helped us. I don't know how many other teams are affected.
Actually, I very much enjoyed this tossup and thought it was an exemplar of how to get the "Andrew Hart style wacky common link tossup" right - every clue in that question (or at least every one I heard) unambiguously referred to a syphilis study, you could buzz with confidence off the first clue, and there were no weird descriptional modifiers that needed to be added to answers. Both of your suggestions for "improving" this tossup would, in my opinion, severely detract from it (in the first case, because the key to lateraling the tossup if you didn't have real knowledge was realizing that the common link was a disease; in the second, because that's the exact kind of answer line that a "terrible Andrew Hart style wacky common link tossup" would have).

Can Jeff or someone else post this tossup please? Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I felt like I *couldn't* buzz with confidence even though I knew exactly what piece of history the first clue was referring to, because I had no plausible way to know just by listening to the first clue whether the desired commonality was going to end up being 1) the fact that all the experiments were "biomedical" in nature, 2) the fact that all of them involved "human" subjects, 3) the fact that all of them involved syphilis patients, 4) the fact that all of them violated "informed consent", or 5) that all of them constituted "unethical research". Furthermore, based only on the first clue, it seemed plausible that the tossup might either 1) include sexually transmitted diseases other than syphilis in later clues, thus making "STD's" part of the underlined answer, or 2) include other infectious diseases, thus making "infectious (disease)" part of the underlined answer. The only clearly eliminated possibilities are 1) it won't be a country/region, because "Guatemala" was given, and 2) it won't be a time period, because "1940s" was given. But multiple other possible commonalities were in play.
Finally, after naming several different syphilis studies and making clear that the answer is a "type of study" rather than a given study, why is one specific study accepted as an alternate answer?
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:02 am

DI SCT round 4 wrote:Evidence of one of these experiments took place in Guatemala in the 1940s was uncovered by Susan Reverby. Another of them led to the 1979 Belmont Report. Sing Sing was the site of in a 1954 event of this type, led by John Cutler, who told 399 participants of another one that they had "bad (*) blood." Bill Clinton apologized for a 1932 to 1972 one, which was the "longest nontherapeutic experiment on human beings." For 10 points--black men went untreated what type of study in Tuskegee?

answer: _syphilis_ study (accept reasonable equivalents containing _syphilis_; accept _Tuskegee syphilis_ experiment; prompt on "disease study" or other more general equivalents)
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Frater Taciturnus » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:03 am

Fred wrote:
49-Mile Scenic Drive wrote:The first one that comes to mind is the Auguste Rodin toss-up. It mentioned Burghers of Calais(which for some stupid reason I didn't buzz on and should be slapped for it) then Paolo and Francesca, which I finally buzzed on. I was informed it was still a power. I don't think I can even remember Burghers of Calais being in powermark at HSNCT when I played. I'd be interested to see this toss-up and see how far the powermark actually goes.

D2 SCT is supposed to be easier than HSNCT.


Branching slightly off topic, I wonder how many people not familiar with NAQT's internal difficulty coding assume this to be the other way around like Mark did. Could such a misconception have an impact on say, tournament fields?
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Ukonvasara » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:58 am

Fred wrote:Also, in response to Rob: I'm not saying that Burghers of Calais is or isn't inherently early for that spot, I'm just saying that the "it's not in power at HSNCT" isn't a good argument, because D2 SCT is supposed to be easier than HSNCT.

Oh, I both understand and agree with your point! I was just clarifying that, while the conclusion was reached through somewhat faulty reasoning, it was basically correct--that clue was too early.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby 49-Mile Scenic Drive » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:13 pm

Since it was in D1 and I more than likely won't ever see said question, just for the sports trivia nut in me could I see the UCLA Quarterbacks bonus that was mentioned in the Critique my Questions section?
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:57 pm

DI SCT round 10 wrote:For 10 points each--name these UCLA quarterbacks:

A. He finished third in the 1988 Heisman Trophy voting and later starred in three Super Bowls for the Dallas Cowboys.

answer: Troy (Kenneth) _Aikman_

B. This actor was UCLA's quarterback in 1972; he currently stars as Jethro Gibbs on ~NCIS~.

answer: Mark _Harmon_

C. This man was the XFL's only MVP and had a successful 2002 season for Pittsburgh, leading them to the playoffs; he was injured in the first game of 2004, losing the starting job to Ben Roethlisberger.

answer: (Thomas Alfred) Tommy _Maddox_
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby cvdwightw » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:03 pm

In the D1 tossup on Madrid, the "Atocha station" clue is still within power, while in the D2 tossup on Madrid it is not. I am very confused as to how this happened.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:23 pm

The two divisions were powermarked by different editors (and the clues prior to Atocha were easier in DII than in DI for obvious reasons). Anyway, I have fixed this anomaly by moving the DI powermark in our archive.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Demonic Leftovers » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:56 pm

Would it be possible to see the Warren Burger TU?
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby swwFCqb » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:01 pm

While you're at it could you please post the Kenny (from South Park) TU in DI?
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:27 pm

DI SCT round 2 wrote:This man wrote the majority opinion in ~INS v. Chadha~, which held that a legislative veto violated separation of powers. This man received his appointment after the Senate blocked the confirmation of Abe Fortas. He wrote about the history of sodomy laws in his concurrence to ~Bowers v. Hardwick~, while his tenure saw the Court extend the right to (*) privacy to abortion. For 10 points--~Roe v. Wade~ was handed down under what Chief Justice from Minnesota who succeeded Earl Warren?


DI SCT round 3 wrote:In a Master P video, this figure was given a quarter, and told to return with $1,000. He was once arrested after an appearance on the Howard Stern Show. He eventually convinced Satan to leave (*) Saddam Hussein. He had his heart replaced with a potato during an operation caused by lighting a fart on fire. His parents, Stuart and Carol, are both unemployed alcoholics and drug addicts. For 10 points--name this resident of South Park who wears an orange parka.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby grapesmoker » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:35 pm

DI SCT round 2 wrote:This man wrote the majority opinion in ~INS v. Chadha~, which held that a legislative veto violated separation of powers. This man received his appointment after the Senate blocked the confirmation of Abe Fortas. He wrote about the history of sodomy laws in his concurrence to ~Bowers v. Hardwick~, while his tenure saw the Court extend the right to (*) privacy to abortion. For 10 points--~Roe v. Wade~ was handed down under what Chief Justice from Minnesota who succeeded Earl Warren?


I know that this might be a wording nitpick, but I would point to the sentence fragment beginning with "his tenure" as somewhat ambiguous. Obviously every judge has tenure on the Court and not knowing the preceding clues would mean that you likely don't know that the person being asked about is a Chief Justice. I would have simply changed this to "his tenure as Chief Justice etc." to make this less confusing, because I can see a lot of people buzzing with Blackmun on that abortion clue.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Inkana7 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:27 pm

Two comments:

1) Since we're talking about it, I'd like to note that I enjoyed the syphilis studies tossup a lot.

2) The wording in the leadin for that New Zealand history tossup was terrible. The first clue should have at least a prompt for the player, such as myself, who buzzes with "Britain" and the second is negbait for "Poland." This caused a protest in our first game in the final against Kurtis that decided the game when we lost it due to some NAQT role about unique answers defined in the answerline or something.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:31 pm

It's this one:

NAQT rules J.6 wrote:If a player gives an incorrect response to an interrupted tossup before the question has uniquely identified any answer (including the correct one) the response will be treated as incorrect.


and I apologize for the way the question was worded (which was indeed ambiguous and misleading)
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Matt Weiner » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:18 pm

Sir Thopas wrote:I mean, yeah, I did a similar thing (as I described upthread). In an ideal world (a) any of the satem branches would have been acceptable there and (b) this would have been somehow communicated, but this seems pretty impossible, unfortunately.


As the author of this tossup, I'll note that it began "In many languages from this family." Satem, Indo-Iranian, etc are not language families; Indo-European is. Sometimes in quizbowl it's not good to get bogged down in technical definitions and instead we should give players a little more latitude, but in the case of questions on languages or linguistic groupings I don't see any way to ever write them at all without insisting that the academic sense of a "language family" be preserved. Otherwise, we'd be in exactly the situation you describe where, instead of a traditional answer line, Moderator X has to identify on the fly whether you buzzed in with something more or less related to the content of the question, which is obviously not feasible.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby women, fire and dangerous things » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:41 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:
Sir Thopas wrote:I mean, yeah, I did a similar thing (as I described upthread). In an ideal world (a) any of the satem branches would have been acceptable there and (b) this would have been somehow communicated, but this seems pretty impossible, unfortunately.


As the author of this tossup, I'll note that it began "In many languages from this family." Satem, Indo-Iranian, etc are not language families; Indo-European is. Sometimes in quizbowl it's not good to get bogged down in technical definitions and instead we should give players a little more latitude, but in the case of questions on languages or linguistic groupings I don't see any way to ever write them at all without insisting that the academic sense of a "language family" be preserved. Otherwise, we'd be in exactly the situation you describe where, instead of a traditional answer line, Moderator X has to identify on the fly whether you buzzed in with something more or less related to the content of the question, which is obviously not feasible.


Actually, branches of Indo-European (and other large language families), like Indo-Iranian and Slavic, are commonly referred to as families even in the academic literature, although it's true that satem isn't a language family.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Fond du lac operon » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:47 am

Ah, I just remembered another thing: in the DII tossup on Milton Friedman, both Jonathan Thompson and I buzzed (in separate rooms) after "Along with his wife Rose...". That's probably fine as part of a lead-in at that level, but it's arguably not well-placed since it's possible to guess that the answer is Friedman before you hear any actual uniquely identifying clues.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Cheynem » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:48 am

Some DI points:

-Generally the two trends in terms of clunkers I saw were the occasional good idea that may not have been executed properly. For instance, there's nothing really wrong with asking about "hoaxes" or "underwater archaeology," but I remember during both tossups not understanding what was going on or even what the pronoun meant until a mild cliff was reached. In these cases, perhaps more generous answer lines or conversion into bonuses might have been better (again, it's sometimes hard to hear what the question is asking for, so maybe this is just my fault).

-The other clunker trend was just the occasional usage of cliffs, which are hard to avoid with short character space. The only egregious example I thought I noticed was the Sikhism tossup that dropped "Khalsa" very early after a lot of clues that seemed overly general to me.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Sam » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:50 am

Cheynem wrote:Some DI points:

-Generally the two trends in terms of clunkers I saw were the occasional good idea that may not have been executed properly. For instance, there's nothing really wrong with asking about "hoaxes" or "underwater archaeology," but I remember during both tossups not understanding what was going on or even what the pronoun meant until a mild cliff was reached. In these cases, perhaps more generous answer lines or conversion into bonuses might have been better (again, it's sometimes hard to hear what the question is asking for, so maybe this is just my fault).

The "hoaxes" tossup referred to the answer first as "works," then as "processes." That was indeed confusing.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:02 am

DI SCT round 6 wrote:One work of this kind, detailing surgery to create a third eye in the forehead, was the 1956 autobiography of Tibetan lama Lobsang Rampa. Later examples of this phenomenon included the centenarians of Vilcabamba and the Tasaday, a surviving Filipino Stone Age culture. The (*) Kensington Runestone and Cardiff Giant are examples of this process, which allegedly occurred when two "taupou" joked about meeting boys. For 10 points--Derek Freeman wrote that what had "fatefully" happened to Margaret Mead?

answer: anthropological _hoax_es (or _lies_ or _things that do not exist_ or other equivalents conveying the notion of falsehood; accept The Fateful _Hoaxing_ of Margaret Mead)


DI SCT round 15 wrote:This discipline was responsible for the discovery of tin at Uluburun and the recovery of the Antikythera mechanism. A 1692 landslide made Port Royal in Jamaica an unusual subject of this discipline, which more often tries to find clinker-built objects that have avoided destruction by teredo worms. Military subjects of this discipline include the (*) ~Mary Rose~ and the ~Vasa~, raised from the mud of Stockholm harbor. For 10 points--name this discipline whose practitioners excavate shipwrecks.

answer: _underwater archaeology_ (accept _maritime archaeology_ or _marine archaeology_; accept _shipwreck archaeology_ before "shipwrecks" is read; accept the _excavation_ of sunken _ship_s before "excavate" is read; prompt on "archaeology")
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby bradleykirksey » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:16 am

What is it like to be a Batman? wrote:Our team 10'd that name-change bonus (we got Boof Bonser but not the other two) but it wasn't a very good question, I don't think -- there were way less obscure parts that could have been asked instead of a middleweight boxer who retired well before most DII players were born, and a mediocre basketball player from the early '80s. I don't know how Alabama A did on that bonus, but it's worth noting that my team were hardly ignorant of sports trivia. I would have done something like Metta World Peace/Boof/Kareem there.


I'd like to second this. I love sports, and so do two of my teammates. We 0'd this. It's the only bonus that comes to mind without an easy part, but I went from very happy to very sad when I found out none of them were Muhammad Ali or Kareem.

Also, I don't know much about art history. But a teammate of mine negged on a question reading something along the lines of "Munch painted two of these paintings with nude women," with "Madonnas." He swears by the fact that Munch painted two nude Madonnas, and he's an art history major. I might not know what I'm talking about, but is this a legitimate complaint, and should it be fixed before any mirror tournaments?
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby jonah » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:19 am

bradleykirksey wrote:Also, I don't know much about art history. But a teammate of mine negged on a question reading something along the lines of "Munch painted two of these paintings with nude women," with "Madonnas." He swears by the fact that Munch painted two nude Madonnas, and he's an art history major. I might not know what I'm talking about, but is this a legitimate complaint, and should it be fixed before any mirror tournaments?
http://www.visitmuseums.com/exhibition/munch-nudes-paintings-prints-and-drawings-at-munch-193 demonstrates that there are at least three nudes by Munch. I suppose that also means he painted two nudes, but I would say it's not a particularly defensible buzz on that clue.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby The Two Hearts of Kwasi Boachi » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:25 am

jonah wrote:
bradleykirksey wrote:Also, I don't know much about art history. But a teammate of mine negged on a question reading something along the lines of "Munch painted two of these paintings with nude women," with "Madonnas." He swears by the fact that Munch painted two nude Madonnas, and he's an art history major. I might not know what I'm talking about, but is this a legitimate complaint, and should it be fixed before any mirror tournaments?
http://www.visitmuseums.com/exhibition/munch-nudes-paintings-prints-and-drawings-at-munch-193 demonstrates that there are at least three nudes by Munch. I suppose that also means he painted two nudes, but I would say it's not a particularly defensible buzz on that clue.


That question started out by saying "Munch's depiction of THIS SCENE notably included a nude" whatever the woman's name was. It sounds like your teammate was mishearing a clue (possibly), because that definitely points to the Death of Marat.

EDIT: Jeff, could you actually post the Death of Marat tossup in D2 in question?
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby The Ununtiable Twine » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:37 am

What is it like to be a Batman? wrote:Our team 10'd that name-change bonus (we got Boof Bonser but not the other two) but it wasn't a very good question, I don't think -- there were way less obscure parts that could have been asked instead of a middleweight boxer who retired well before most DII players were born, and a mediocre basketball player from the early '80s. I don't know how Alabama A did on that bonus, but it's worth noting that my team were hardly ignorant of sports trivia. I would have done something like Metta World Peace/Boof/Kareem there.


Alabama A knew all of these, for the record. But then again this should come as no surprise.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:41 am

DII SCT round 4 wrote:Edvard Munch painted two canvases by this name, both of which show a naked Tulla Larsen standing by the title figure. The more famous work by this name doesn't show the subject's skin condition, but does include a green rug. The subject holds a letter announcing (*) Charlotte Corday, while a bloody knife lies next to his bathtub. For 10 points--name this Jacques-Louis David painting of a murdered French revolutionary.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby MLafer » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:17 am

Is this the proper place to talk about question errors? I know there's a good chance NAQT already knows about these, but in Div II, there was a question about 'Democrats in Congress' that asked about Peter King, who is a Republican. There was also a bonus on Sophists that mentioned the 'man is the measure of all things' quote in the 2nd part and then asked '___ is the measure of all things' in the 3rd part.

I know there was also a bonus that referred to a male as 'she' but I can't remember what question it was.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Papa's in the House » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:26 am

Cheynem wrote:-Generally the two trends in terms of clunkers I saw were the occasional good idea that may not have been executed properly. For instance, there's nothing really wrong with asking about "hoaxes" or "underwater archaeology," but I remember during both tossups not understanding what was going on or even what the pronoun meant until a mild cliff was reached. In these cases, perhaps more generous answer lines or conversion into bonuses might have been better (again, it's sometimes hard to hear what the question is asking for, so maybe this is just my fault).

The surviving a flood tossup suffered from the same problem and caused a neg of "recreating the human race" when the tossup started describing Deucalion.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:25 pm

MLafer wrote:Is this the proper place to talk about question errors? I know there's a good chance NAQT already knows about these, but in Div II, there was a question about 'Democrats in Congress' that asked about Peter King, who is a Republican. There was also a bonus on Sophists that mentioned the 'man is the measure of all things' quote in the 2nd part and then asked '___ is the measure of all things' in the 3rd part.

I know there was also a bonus that referred to a male as 'she' but I can't remember what question it was.


Yes, and I've already fixed the sophists one. Will make the other change right now.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Tale of Mac Datho's Pachycephalosaur » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:57 am

One little gripe I have is about the "Vampire Diaries" TU. I negged early on "Founder's Day," answering "Eureka." Now, I understand that the clue was "first Founder's Day," which makes mine kind of a stupid neg, but the clue was just a tad misleading...

I won't even begin to speculate on whether characters from the past in one of the innumerable alternate timelines would have been involved in the celebration of the first Founder's Day (that line of conversation is, I'll admit, speculative and unproductive), but my point stands: That leadin didn't identify the answerline uniquely enough. I'll admit to not listening as closely as I should have, and reflex-buzzing on a Eureka clue, but there should have been some more discretion used.

Oh, also, it seems that there are episodes of "Little House on the Prarie" and "The Waltons" entitled "Founder's Day." Really, I have no expectation that such shows would come up, nor do I think it was an egregious error to have that clue (it would seem like a fine enough clue at first glance), but any show about a town may have some reference to a Founder's Day. Maybe replace that leadin.

Lastly, what's with the lack of India tossups in that set? There was one in Round 1 on Pakistan, and another question about India in Packet 13 (I think), but I didn't notice any appreciable Hinduism or Buddhism answerlines. It may've been overemphasized last year, but unless they were concentrated near the ends of packets and we just didn't hear 'em, they were maybe a bit sparse. Was last year an anomaly?
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Kyle » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:49 am

Melkor6000 wrote:Lastly, what's with the lack of India tossups in that set? There was one in Round 1 on Pakistan, and another question about India in Packet 13 (I think), but I didn't notice any appreciable Hinduism or Buddhism answerlines. It may've been overemphasized last year, but unless they were concentrated near the ends of packets and we just didn't hear 'em, they were maybe a bit sparse. Was last year an anomaly?


South Asian content in D2:

Packet 1 - history tossup on Pakistan (which I wrote)
Packet 2 - CE bonus on the dangers of getting a vaccine from the WHO in Abbottabad
Packet 5 - "theology" bonus on Jainism
Packet 9 - geography tossup on K2
Packet 12 - history tossup on the Mughal dynasty
Packet 13 - CE tossup on Manmohan Singh
Packet 13 - history bonus on the Black Hole of Calcutta
Packet 14 - "religious literature" tossup on the Bhagavad Gita
Packet 16 - mythology bonus on Matsya


Rant about mountains:

Leaving aside the fact that I always object to tossups on mountains because literally nobody has ever written an interesting tossup on mountains, the tossup on K2 is pretty poorly written.

This mountain is second only to Annapurna in the fatality rate experienced by climbers. It lies on the border between Xinjiang [shin-jee-yahng] and Baltistan, and its features include the Abruzzi [ah-BROOT-see] Spur, which rises above the (*) Godwin Austen Glacier. It was named by the Great Trigonometric Survey, which failed to locate a proper local name. For 10 points--what highest peak in the Karakoram [KAR-uh-KOR-um] Range is the second-tallest mountain in the world?

answer: _K2_ (or _Qogir_ Feng or _Dapsang_ or _Chogori_; accept Mount _Godwin Austen_ before "Godwin")


There are problems with this tossup on both the macro- and micro-levels. For starters, I'm not convinced the lead-in is any good. Having memorized the twenty tallest mountains in the world for a certain Japanese game show, I can definitively tell you that only two of them have any chance at all of being a tossup answer line in D2. You wouldn't put this clue if it were about Everest because everybody knows Everest. K2 is definitely the logical choice already by this point even if you have no idea how dangerous it is. If you do know how dangerous it is (and I think it's fairly common knowledge that K2 is more dangerous than Everest), why would you not buzz here? But moving on. Surely Baltistan is less well known than Xinjiang. So why are these two placed in that order? And given that one ends in "stan" and one sounds Chinese, even if you don't know where these places are you have just learned that we are looking for a mountain on the border between China and Pakistan. And surely the location of the mountain is better known than a named spur that is on it? Additionally, I happen to know where the Godwin Austen Glacier is, but I'm pretty sure that is also less well known than the fact that K2 is on the border between China and Pakistan. Then in the next sentence, the clue about the name is there partly because K2 has a strange name, but partly because there are no more geographic clues to give because it's a mountain and mountains don't make good answer choices for tossups. You're already out of things to say about its geography. Don't write tossups on mountains. They are always, always, always boring. I'd like to think that people have figured this out in the TEN YEARS since this tossup was written and edited, but I think that is not the case.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Cheynem » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:03 am

I find mountains pretty interesting mainly because I'm one of those weirdos who reads stories about mountain climbing expeditions (and there were some really neat ones on K2)--I guess the problem is the answer space for mountains compresses pretty quickly at easy tournaments.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Kyle » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:27 am

Cheynem wrote:I find mountains pretty interesting mainly because I'm one of those weirdos who reads stories about mountain climbing expeditions (and there were some really neat ones on K2)--I guess the problem is the answer space for mountains compresses pretty quickly at easy tournaments.


Sure, but climbing a mountain is literally the only thing you can do to it. Contrast this with rivers, which have direct impact on people's lives. They allow people to farm, fish, drink, transport goods, and participate in religious rituals. They can get polluted, people can fight over access to them, they can get dammed, they can change course, and they can form boundaries. Mountains just kind of sit there.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Kyle » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:39 am

Also, as long as we're talking about geography in the D2 SCT set, I want to complain about something. A bonus that I wrote about post-communist cities in Eastern Europe whose economies are adjusting to capitalism was rejected on the grounds that it "does not have a coherent theme," and it is absolutely crucial for geography bonuses to have "themes." Nevermind that the adjustment of post-communist economies to capitalism is actually a very specific theme. Here are some geography bonuses that the same editor who rejected my bonus edited and placed in the D2 SCT set:

For 10 points each--name these European rivers:



A. This river that flows through Paris has its mouth at Le Havre [luh hahv].



answer: _Seine_ [sen] River



B. Florence and Pisa are both on this Italian river that flows west into the Ligurian Sea.



answer: _Arno_ River



C. This river flows north of Prague and through Dresden and Hamburg on its way to the North Sea.

answer: _Elbe_ [EL-buh] River (or _Labe_ River)


For 10 points each--name these places in the Indian Ocean:



A. This island formerly known as Ceylon is separated from India by the Palk Strait.



answer: (Democratic Socialist Republic of) _Sri Lanka_



B. This member of the British Commonwealth, once the home of the {dodo}, lies northeast of Reunion.



answer: (Republic of) _Mauritius_ [muh-RIH-shuss] (or Republik _Moris_ or R\'epublique de _Maurice_)



C. The Malagasy ethnic group dominates this island with astonishing biodiversity; over 10,000 {endemic} species of plants and 140 endemic mammals live there.



answer: _Madagascar_


For 10 points each--name these Asian deserts:



A. Covering about 500,000 square miles of Mongolia and China, this desert mostly consists of bare rock, not sand.



answer: _Gobi_ [GOH-bee] Desert



B. This desert of Turkmenistan lies east of the Caspian Sea and south of the Amu Darya [AH-moo DAR-yuh] River.



answer: _Karakum_ [KAR-uh-koom] Desert (do not accept "Kyzyl Kum")



C. This sand desert covers 250,000 square miles of the Arabian Peninsula. Despite its name, that is closer to one-fifth than one-fourth of the peninsula's area.



answer: _Rub' al-Khali_ [RUB ahl-KAH-lee] or _Empty Quarter_


For 10 points each--name these {cities in} China:



A. This most populous Chinese city sits on the Huangpu [wahng-poo] River.



answer: _Shanghai_



B. This Chinese city on the Yangtze served as a capital to many dynasties; its names means "Southern Capital."



answer: _Nanjing_ (accept _Nanking_)



C. This city of nearly nine million is immediately north of Hong Kong in Guangdong Province. It was China's first {Special Economic Zone}.



answer: _Shenzhen_ [shun-jun]


In none of these bonuses does any part have anything at all to do with any other part. The geography in the SCT, both in D1 and in D2, was essentially totally random. It's really, really frustrating to me that NAQT continues to write such meaningless geography.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Tees-Exe Line » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:03 pm

Mountains just kind of sit there.


You youngsters. No sense of time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orogeny

Also, there's this highly interesting mountain, which should be tossed up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Testaccio
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby cornfused » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:05 pm

Tees-Exe Line wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Testaccio

That's really freaking awesome.

Also, I love that "pretty much just sat there" now applies to mountains.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Tees-Exe Line » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:17 pm

Here's another mountain that didn't just sit there:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... otosi1.jpg
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Cheynem » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 pm

Oh, I agree that mountains make poor tossups, it's just that I like mountain climbing and am wondering to what extent such clues could be used for tossups.
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Tees-Exe Line » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:27 pm

Here is a tossup that I wrote for my best quizbowl writing endeavor of all time, the Public Land theme packet. Admittedly it's not exactly about a mountain, but the mountain clue is the reason why I wrote this tossup since knowing "Mt. Cadillac" is what got me my first-ever "good buzz" in American quizbowl, at Fichte 2009. I re-post it here to highlight all the fascinating things that can be done that somehow relate to mountains. In fact, I feel a mountain theme packet coming on....

This man served the colonial administration of New France as commander of the
fortifications of Machilimackinac at the junction of Lake Michigan and Lake Huron. Earlier,
he had managed to get himself granted the concession of the estate of Les Douacques,
which produced an annual income of zero dollars at the time, but much later became
a vacation destination for nineteenth-century robber-barons. One of them, John D.
Rockefeller, donated the estate to the US to become Acadia National Park, and its highest
peak is one of this man’s namesakes. The other one is due to the time he spent founding
Fort Ponchartrain du Detroit. For ten points, name this controversial figure in the history of
French North America, the namesake of said mountain and of the premier American luxury
car brand, absorbed by General Motors in 1909.

Antoine de la Mothe Cadillac
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Re: talk about individual questions here

Postby Cheynem » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:32 pm

If I recall, Mount Cadillac was during Ryan's Experiment II.
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