Dripping Springs State Park wrote:Having gone through a very similar process last year and this year (and one that's by no means done), here's what I'd recommend. I had some advantage here in that we had $1000 from NAC last year, although you guys probably have some money from MACC.
1) Get NAQT's new high school package. If your team has a stockpile of well-written pyramidal questions that they're reading, it's a lot easier to point out how bad the QU questions are in comparison. If you can get your team practicing on good questions, that's a huge step in the right direction.
2) Tournaments. They're fun and they make a good impression. Going to more tournaments, and showing your team members how pyramidal tournaments are more games on better questions, while still being fun and competitive, is great. You can also consider going to tournaments unofficially (i.e. without an advisor or school chaperone), if it's more convenient.
3) Hosting stuff. Is March 3rd set in stone for MACC? If you could move that to the next Saturday, March 10th, that date is clear for you to run a tournament that will attract teams from outside the region. Otherwise, you might want to try holding an additional tournament, possibly in early May (although this conflicts with AP exams). You could pitch it to your advisor(s) as a fundraiser.
tintinnabulation wrote:I'm going though this same "good quizbowl" transition with my team. Usually we play Questions Galore questions. I am not familiar with Questions Unlimited, but my guess is that they are similar in content and format. Because we had to drop a tournament earlier in the year, my coach signed us up for the Springfield NAQT Invite in January, which means we have to play NAQT. Yay for me, BOOOOO! for the rest of my team. I love pyramidal, they love to hate 'em.
The problem with playing pyramidal is that the rest of my team hardly knows/buzzes on our "normal" questions, so they can't play pyramidal very well and hate how "long" the questions are and how "obscure" the clues are. They want to get back to the "normal" questions as soon as possible, and my coach isn't helping. I think his position is halfway in between mine and the rest of the team's. He's almost open to doing pyramidal but he hates how long the questions are, how obscure the clues (and answers, sometimes) are, how easy the giveaways are.
I don't know how to advance our program toward "good quizbowl." The idea of starting with the younger players is great, and I think I'll try to work on my JV coach. The rest of my team just doesn't want to see "the light" or just doesn't care.
Bone seeker wrote:NIU Huskie Bowl would love to have Peoria Christian attend (and I'm 99% sure Kristin's emailed your coach with the invite); if PCHS doesn't attend, perhaps the Trang Academy for Learning Knowledge would like to register one team?
tintinnabulation wrote:Bone seeker wrote:NIU Huskie Bowl would love to have Peoria Christian attend (and I'm 99% sure Kristin's emailed your coach with the invite); if PCHS doesn't attend, perhaps the Trang Academy for Learning Knowledge would like to register one team?
We're hosting a tournament that day, unfortunately. A problem I have with going solo is my IHSA eligibility. Our team's allotted quiz dates are filled out to the max, I believe. If soloing at tourneys doesn't affect IHSA eligibility (they do, I assume, per IHSA guidelines...? [see below]) I'd love to go. For right now, I'm thinking about ATROPHY, which is after IHSA State.
TH IHSA website says that a "contest" is "an event in which teams of five (5) students representing two (2) schools compete with or against each other in academic quizzing, utilizing a format and rules comparable to the IHSA series, is considered a scholastic bowl contest." I thought I saw that each participant has 18 quiz dates, but I can't seem to find that anywhere on the IHSA website. It's either gone or really hard to find. In case it's still there--if a person is soloing, is that different than the "5 student" thing?
tintinnabulation wrote:He's almost open to doing pyramidal but he hates..., how obscure the clues (and answers, sometimes) are, how easy the giveaways are. .
Bone seeker wrote:Huskie Bowl (and any other 4-on-4 tourney) doesn't count towards 18 dates, no matter if it's you playing solo unaffiliated from your team, or if it's your school's team, or whatever. If it's 5-on-5, I'd imagine that you playing solo counts towards your personal 18 date limit.
And that offer re: Huskie Bowl obviously extends to ATROPHY, as well. :)
What questions are you guys using for your 1/28/12 tourney?
Smuttynose Island wrote:tintinnabulation wrote:He's almost open to doing pyramidal but he hates..., how obscure the clues (and answers, sometimes) are, how easy the giveaways are. .
Have you attempted to explain to your coach how those statements contradict eachother? The first one implies that he does not like how hard some of the clues are, presumably because not many people on your team know them and can get the question off of them, while the second one implies that he thinks things are too easy simply because the question gives clues that many people will know.
I think you (well, they) exaggerate the easiness of giveaways. Certainly they are the easiest clues in tossups, but not that many are on the level of "this first president"; most require some knowledge that we would not expect of a second-grader.tintinnabulation wrote:He just hates how long and drawn out and hard the question is, only to find a buzzer beater at the end of the question. If the after-FTP part would include something that required more actual knowledge than just common sense, e.g. "first president of the United States," I think he would like them better. The questions seem a waste of time if you have to listen to all these hard clues and only have to name the first president of the United States or the equivalent of a "curved yellow fruit." Then, of course, you have to go to bonus. If you go to bonus after having to read the entirety of every tossup, it makes the match really, really long.
Coldblueberry wrote: https://docs.google.com/document/d/15QV ... t?hl=en_US
SrgtDonow wrote:we have LIFT, HHH, Chatham, Kings Park, and posibly NJ state champs
Matt Weiner wrote:The really direct and immediate correlation between the work you put in to learn things and your success is one of the differences between real and fake quizbowl. Most teachers are fairly receptive to this point since it involves the value of learning and work. In Chip tournaments you pretty much stay as good as you were when you started, because of the random trivia focus, so there's no incentive to care about learning things you miss.
FYI, I hope that we will have a New York state championship for spring 2012.
He just hates how long and drawn out and hard the question is, only to find a buzzer beater at the end of the question. If the after-FTP part would include something that required more actual knowledge than just common sense, e.g. "first president of the United States," I think he would like them better. The questions seem a waste of time if you have to listen to all these hard clues and only have to name the first president of the United States or the equivalent of a "curved yellow fruit." Then, of course, you have to go to bonus. If you go to bonus after having to read the entirety of every tossup, it makes the match really, really long.
Another benefit of switching MACC to March 10th, if possible; you'd be able to go to Prison Bowl. Also, given the lack of HSAPQ sets being played in the area, that might be a good set to use for a tournament.
Also, as a Canadian, I've never seen Chip bowl, but from all that I've heard it seems to have a lot of questions and/or rules that punish real knowledge similar to how the Canadian national format works. I've always found that pointing out bad writing mannerisms (not giving alternate answers, being hoses, extremely short, etc.) is helpful in getting people to play real quizbowl.
SrgtDonow wrote:Another benefit of switching MACC to March 10th, if possible; you'd be able to go to Prison Bowl. Also, given the lack of HSAPQ sets being played in the area, that might be a good set to use for a tournament.
Agreed on all these points, I just again hope March 10th SAT isn't seen as a huge issue (but to be honest, convincing people to hold a pyramidal tournament will be a much more difficult process than changing a date)
Dripping Springs State Park wrote:SrgtDonow wrote:Another benefit of switching MACC to March 10th, if possible; you'd be able to go to Prison Bowl. Also, given the lack of HSAPQ sets being played in the area, that might be a good set to use for a tournament.
Agreed on all these points, I just again hope March 10th SAT isn't seen as a huge issue (but to be honest, convincing people to hold a pyramidal tournament will be a much more difficult process than changing a date)
The things that I stressed when arguing for holding a tournament on pyramidal questions were increased team attendance and price. A pyramidal set and a decent number of games for all teams means at least 8 more teams from the traditional "schools who go to things", plus probably 5-10 more depending on which teams are willing to travel. HSAPQ is probably the most expensive set out there at $16/team, but that's still a little cheaper than Chip, whose "charge by round" policy basically discourages good tournament practices. Housewrites will be even cheaper.
Frater Taciturnus wrote:Dripping Springs State Park wrote:SrgtDonow wrote:Another benefit of switching MACC to March 10th, if possible; you'd be able to go to Prison Bowl. Also, given the lack of HSAPQ sets being played in the area, that might be a good set to use for a tournament.
Agreed on all these points, I just again hope March 10th SAT isn't seen as a huge issue (but to be honest, convincing people to hold a pyramidal tournament will be a much more difficult process than changing a date)
The things that I stressed when arguing for holding a tournament on pyramidal questions were increased team attendance and price. A pyramidal set and a decent number of games for all teams means at least 8 more teams from the traditional "schools who go to things", plus probably 5-10 more depending on which teams are willing to travel. HSAPQ is probably the most expensive set out there at $16/team, but that's still a little cheaper than Chip, whose "charge by round" policy basically discourages good tournament practices. Housewrites will be even cheaper.
Unless you have a large amount of n teams, 35+ 15n for NAQT is probably comparable to 16n for the cost of HSAPQ. Most housewrites I have seen in the past are in the 12-14n range, but this really is not a big difference and some of the cheaper housewrites offer fewer packets, which gives the director less flexibility with field/format.
Dripping Springs State Park wrote:The things that I stressed when arguing for holding a tournament on pyramidal questions were increased team attendance and price. A pyramidal set and a decent number of games for all teams means at least 8 more teams from the traditional "schools who go to things", plus probably 5-10 more depending on which teams are willing to travel. HSAPQ is probably the most expensive set out there at $16/team, but that's still a little cheaper than Chip, whose "charge by round" policy basically discourages good tournament practices. Housewrites will be even cheaper.
Unfortunately, a lot of teams place a ton of importance on a year-end tournament. If your team's year-end tournament is NAC, then they are going to want to play during the year. I don't advocate this point-of-view myself--I think teams should play good tournaments throughout the year no matter how they end the season (including possibly not having a big tournament at the end of the year), and I think teams should see the bulk of their season as an important thing in and of itself rather than as a preparation for something bigger. However, lots of coaches don't see it that way.
Make sure your coach/team is aware of the HSNCT, NSC, and NASAT, because if your team ever decided to play any of them it would become easy to convince them that they need to prepare for it. If they aren't willing to switch to that format completely, then enjoy whatever practices and tournaments you can that put a high priority on having lots of good questions, and keep fighting the good fight.
tintinnabulation wrote:
He just hates how long and drawn out and hard the question is, only to find a buzzer beater at the end of the question. If the after-FTP part would include something that required more actual knowledge than just common sense, e.g. "first president of the United States," I think he would like them better. The questions seem a waste of time if you have to listen to all these hard clues and only have to name the first president of the United States or the equivalent of a "curved yellow fruit." Then, of course, you have to go to bonus. If you go to bonus after having to read the entirety of every tossup, it makes the match really, really long.SrgtDonow wrote:
I have no clue exactly what tournaments are in your area, but NAQT's A-sets tend to have a somewhat limited number of "long, drawn out, very difficult" lead ins (though plenty of the "overly easy giveaways" that your coach, and mine, complain about)
NAQT isn't bad. I like their tossups. But one day we read some PACE tossups in practice. Need I say more?
The IHSA state series questions also tend to be long. Those are the pyramidal he hears most often.
tuscumbiaqb wrote:You should try reading some HSAPQ sets or novice sets like SCOP and Fall Novice in practice.
ProfessorIanDuncan wrote:where and when exactly is the NYS Championship or is it still in planning mode?
ProfessorIanDuncan wrote:One of the main problems of our team, in my opinion at least, is that there are more people than in the past but they are less committed. This is in itself may present a large problem in transitioning to "good quizbowl" because the members of the team may be less inclined to go out of Westchester early in the morning for better tournaments. I also fear that some of the members may get intimidated by the potentially harder questions and opponents. That means that each player will have to be more committed to the team which the pessimist in me doesn't seem happening without the team being reduced to potentially four or five people, enough for only one team.
As i have no idea as how to quote previous posts
whitesoxfan wrote:I think people promoting good quizbowl should emphasize that teams don't go to pyramidal tournaments because they're good, they get good by going to pyramidal tournaments. Pyramidal tournaments emphasize learning far more than most other formats. The argument that "We'll, we're not good enough to compete at Saturday tournaments" is a flawed one, because teams aren't good because they haven't been going to Saturday tournaments.
whitesoxfan wrote:I think my argument may apply more in Illinois, when there are a large amount of local leagues that play on weekdays, and relatively cheap and close tournaments nearly every weekend.
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