Fluctuating Difficulty and Finals Packets

Dormant threads from the high school sections are preserved here.
Locked
User avatar
abnormal abdomen
Rikku
Posts: 346
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:58 pm

Fluctuating Difficulty and Finals Packets

Post by abnormal abdomen »

Okay, so I've heard lots about how housewritten sets should typically avoid graduated difficulty and maintain a consistent difficulty throughout the set. I certainly agree that a set should be written in such a way that (a) a tournament minimizes fluctuations in conversions and such, and (b) it looks to create competitive matches in all of the different playoff/rebracketed flights. I do, however, feel that a lot of different factors play into "difficulty," and I was wondering about something particularly in regards to finals packets.

Is there anything inherently egregious about maintaining a consistent accessibility and clue depth/cliff throughout the first X non-finals packets (say, like, 10 or 12) of a set, and then, for the finals packets, maintaining the same general level of accessibility, but simply writing harder questions on the accessible answer lines? Think of this as it being possible for packet 3 and finals packet 2 to be completely interchangeable in terms of their editing quality, answer space accessibility (in both tossups and bonuses), and such, except for the fact that finals packet 2 is just a little more top heavy in terms of its tossups (but written at the same length).

Of course, I do see complications in this concept, as I'm sure many of you do. One issue would be bonuses; I don't think it'd be feasible to just amp up the bonus difficulty, given that it would simply be very unpleasant for the lower bracket finals. And while we're on that topic, I guess that this idea would simply be catering to the top bracket finals teams. Does this practice generally not take place simply because it is assumed that the difficulty of the first X packets is sufficient for differentiating between the best teams regardless (because it's rare for even two great teams to buzz on every single first buzzable clue in every single tossup)?

I apologize in advance if these seem like strange questions. I guess I see why it might be a strange idea, but I'm also not quite sure why I've never heard much discussion on this sort of idea.
Abid Haseeb
Auburn High School '12
Brown University '16
Writer, HSAPQ
Writer, NAQT
Great Bustard
Auron
Posts: 1463
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:23 pm
Location: DC, NJ, and everywhere else
Contact:

Re: Fluctuating Difficulty and Finals Packets

Post by Great Bustard »

No, this isn't strange or odd, it makes sense, especially if not all teams are playing the finals packet. It's at some level a matter of personal preference, but I like the idea of having finals packets have harder answer lines. NSC does this; HSNCT does not from my understanding.
David Madden
Ridgewood (NJ) '99, Princeton '03
Founder and Director: International History Bee and Bowl, National History Bee and Bowl (High School Division), International History Olympiad, United States Geography Olympiad, US History Bee, US Academic Bee and Bowl, National Humanities Bee, National Science Bee, International Academic Bowl.
Adviser and former head coach for Team USA at the International Geography Olympiad
User avatar
at your pleasure
Auron
Posts: 1723
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:56 pm

Re: Fluctuating Difficulty and Finals Packets

Post by at your pleasure »

The problem you could run into is tournaments not using the finals packets per their labels or not being able or willing to burn them for finals, in which case you have a two-round difficulty spike.
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
"... imagination acts upon man as really as does gravitation, and may kill him as certainly as a dose of prussic acid."-Sir James Frazer,The Golden Bough

http://avorticistking.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Charles Martel
Wakka
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:21 am

Re: Fluctuating Difficulty and Finals Packets

Post by Charles Martel »

The only observable effect of the difficulty spike would be an increase in buzzer races between weaker teams, and a decrease in buzzer races between stronger teams. Everyone would also notice that the tossups take longer to get answered. However, if the answer lines were kept the same, conversion wouldn't really change.
Adam Kalinich
MIT 2012-
Illinois Math and Science Academy 2009-2012
User avatar
dtaylor4
Auron
Posts: 3733
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:43 am

Re: Fluctuating Difficulty and Finals Packets

Post by dtaylor4 »

The major question the writers have to ask as a group is how widely they want the set mirrored. In a number of growing circuits, the average difficulty for "stepped-up" finals packets is too much for teams to take. This severely handicaps teams running mirrors on these sets, as they are down those two packets.
User avatar
Whiter Hydra
Auron
Posts: 1418
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:46 pm
Location: Fairfax, VA
Contact:

Re: Fluctuating Difficulty and Finals Packets

Post by Whiter Hydra »

A lot of times, you have consolation rounds going on at the same time. It would not be ideal if the 29th-placed team played the 30th-placed team on a hard packet.
Harry White
TJHSST '09, Virginia Tech '13

Owner of Tournament Database Search and Quizbowl Schedule Generator
Will run stats for food
User avatar
Charles Martel
Wakka
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:21 am

Re: Fluctuating Difficulty and Finals Packets

Post by Charles Martel »

IMO, whether the 29th v 30th game has a high conversion rate is an insignificant concern compared to whether the first place game is good.
Adam Kalinich
MIT 2012-
Illinois Math and Science Academy 2009-2012
User avatar
Down and out in Quintana Roo
Auron
Posts: 2907
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:25 am
Location: Camden, DE
Contact:

Re: Fluctuating Difficulty and Finals Packets

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Paging Charlie Dees. Charlie Dees, you are needed in this thread to knock some sense into people.
Mr. Andrew Chrzanowski
Caesar Rodney High School
Camden, Delaware
CRHS '97-'01
University of Delaware '01-'05
CRHS quizbowl coach '06-'12
http://crquizbowl.edublogs.org
User avatar
abnormal abdomen
Rikku
Posts: 346
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:58 pm

Re: Fluctuating Difficulty and Finals Packets

Post by abnormal abdomen »

whitesoxfan wrote:IMO, whether the 29th v 30th game has a high conversion rate is an insignificant concern compared to whether the first place game is good.
I'd rather not screw over those teams, though, if the experience would be unpleasant for them. I especially wouldn't want to screw over entire mirror sites which aren't as strong as others.

And actually, Coach Chrzanowski, I talked to Charlie about this. Obviously, he disagreed with the idea, particularly on the grounds that a tournament should seek to determine the best team on a particular and consistent style of questions. That makes sense to me, I think. I should stress that I'm not actually vehemently pushing for this idea. I'm really just trying to get a better understanding of its implications. I'm pretty certain that we will be looking to maintain a consistent difficulty for Auburn's housewrite, to be announced sometime soon.
Abid Haseeb
Auburn High School '12
Brown University '16
Writer, HSAPQ
Writer, NAQT
Locked