2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby The Predictable Consequences » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:57 pm

Westwon wrote:...should stick to stuff that you don't have to be a sports fan to know about,...


This is ridiculous. Am I allowed to ask that all science questions be answerable by someone who has no interest in science? Quizbowl is a game for rewarding knowledge, and by saying "you don't have to learn about this, we'll dumb it down for you", we're missing opportunities to promote the acquisition of knowledge. Say someone heard the HSNCT tossup on relegation and thought it sounded interesting. They then go home and research the Premier League, maybe develop an interest in it, watch a couple games. The Premier League is the most important league in the most important sport in the world. Now tell me that isn't something worth learning about, not only from an academic but also a cultural standpoint. Or take the Nets. A quick look at the Nets' Wikipedia page will discover that they once played in the ABA. The ABA was a cultural landmark, one which very much reflected the attitudes of the 1970s and is a legitimate part of American history.

Basically, my point is this. It's 0.4/0.4 of the distribution. Not cramming the starting lineup of the 1975 Cincinnati Reds (Bench, Perez, Morgan, Concepcion, Rose, Foster, Geronimo, Griffey) won't--and shouldn't--destroy your team. Take it out of HSNCT, because it shouldn't determine a national champion. But don't make sports the illegitimate child of history and current events. Doing so ignores important chances to gain real knowledge.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Broad-tailed Grassbird » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:23 pm

styxman wrote:
Joe N wrote:I'll just point out that with most literature, if you don't read the book or at least the cliff notes, it's utterly impossible. I would have gotten Pride and Prejudice tossup by references to Aishwarya Rai and the Bollywood spoof because they mentioned it at the Filmfare awards, but I'd have known nothing about the actual book or anything else by Jane Austen . Literature (especially Russian) is almost impossible to write in a way that is accessible to people who just aren't interested in that topic, uniquely so, given that most people probably have at least a tiny bit of knowledge about all academic subjects from school. I've even answered chemistry Tossups because something osmosed itself into my brain.


Joe Nutter is 100% correct, and this provides a good argument for reducing the amount of literature in the NAQT distribution.



Fortunately for you Joe, I will play on your SCT team if you want (assuming you want to play D1 this year), and no sports question will go unanswered, and hopefully I can pick up all that chem.

As for the actual Nets question, the Nets were the Lakers bridesmaids for many years in the early 2000s. Kidd, Martin, Jefferson make an awesome combo, and they ran the court better than any team in my lifetime (any team coached by Don Nelson doesn't count). I tear it up with them in NBA Live 2004.

Having Larry Fitzgerald and Backyard Brawl in the power made this question completely appropriate for an IS set. Joe, you could have reasoned that question out without sports knowledge anyways. From following the '04 presidential election, everyone knows Kerry is married to the widow of HJ Heinz III, and that Heinz is based in Pittsburgh from Teresa Heinz saying that that was her Pittsburgh name, and that Teresa Heinz Kerry was her political name. And they gave away the Panther part in the end.
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Minnesota Vikings

Postby Sniper, No Sniping! » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:27 pm

Speaking of TRASH questions and easily powerable-bility, one question that really stuck out as "Wow, this is really accessible" was the Minnesota Vikings question in IS-105, can you post the question and its conversion statistics?
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:37 pm

IS #105 round 9 wrote:Bud Grant coached this NFC team to four Super Bowls, three with quarterback Fran Tarkenton, but lost all four. In 1998 it averaged nearly 35 points per game with Randall Cunningham throwing to Randy Moss. In January 2010 it lost the NFC (*) Championship Game following a late interception by Brett Favre. For 10 points--Adrian Peterson plays for what team whose home stadium, the Metrodome, is in the Twin Cities?


11/5/5 in 18 rooms at Ohio and New Jersey states, which is too many powers.

Also 3/0/0 in 3 rooms at Minnesota states, but any plausible tossup on this answer will be powered there.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Cheynem » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:07 pm

This question seems more or less fine (as in pyramidal), but the power mark is probably too generous.

Pet peeves:

*TRASH is an organization, "trash" is the proper term for pop culture questions.
*Accessibility is not the word you intended, as all questions should be accessible. I think you probably meant "easy to power." Accessibility means people know the answer period.


Also, please post the tossup on Bull from Night Court.
Last edited by Cheynem on Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Dr. Loki Skylizard, Thoracic Surgeon » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:09 pm

Please post a tossup on Abdullah the Butcher's House of Ribs and Chinese Food.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:32 pm

Cheynem wrote:Also, please post the tossup on Bull from Night Court.


Mostly because I was amazed there's actually one of these in our database:

2001 Academic Olympics set 2 round 1 wrote:World War II admiral William F. Halsey. Colonel Meecham in ~The Great Santini~. Birmingham (*) police commissioner Eugene Connor. And ~Night Court~ bailiff Nostradamus Shannon. For 10 points--these men all share what bovine nickname?
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Frater Taciturnus » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:43 pm

Fred wrote:Please post a tossup on Abdullah the Butcher's House of Ribs and Chinese Food.


HSNCT packet 28 wrote:An expedition to this location based on hastily scribbled directions ended in failure after it was unable to reach Martin Luther King Drive. Another expedition to this location ended at the (*) Checkers in the Peachtree Center. Those failed expeditions have led to this location's supposed mythical status. For 10 points--name this restaurant at which barbecue and fried rice are prepared by a "Sudanese" pro wrestler.
answer: _Abdullah the Butcher's House of Ribs and Chinese Food_
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Coelacanth » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:29 pm

bt_green_warbler wrote:
IS #105 round 9 wrote:Bud Grant ...


Also 3/0/0 in 3 rooms at Minnesota states, but any plausible tossup on this answer will be powered there.


Notably powered by Eden Prairie HS, whose football team is coached by Mike Grant (son of Bud).
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Sniper, No Sniping! » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:59 pm

bt_green_warbler wrote:
IS #105 round 9 wrote:Bud Grant coached this NFC team to four Super Bowls, three with quarterback Fran Tarkenton, but lost all four. In 1998 it averaged nearly 35 points per game with Randall Cunningham throwing to Randy Moss. In January 2010 it lost the NFC (*) Championship Game following a late interception by Brett Favre. For 10 points--Adrian Peterson plays for what team whose home stadium, the Metrodome, is in the Twin Cities?


11/5/5 in 18 rooms at Ohio and New Jersey states, which is too many powers.

Also 3/0/0 in 3 rooms at Minnesota states, but any plausible tossup on this answer will be powered there.

I'm a proud contributer to one of those 11 powers :). Fran Tarkenton is a dead giveaway, likewise with Randy Moss.
And Mike, my apologies, I wasn't too sure how to accurately say what I wanted to without it being cryptic, hehe.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Partido Galeguista » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:20 pm

Ulster Clay Pigeon Shooting Association wrote:
bt_green_warbler wrote:
IS #105 round 9 wrote:Bud Grant coached this NFC team to four Super Bowls, three with quarterback Fran Tarkenton, but lost all four. In 1998 it averaged nearly 35 points per game with Randall Cunningham throwing to Randy Moss. In January 2010 it lost the NFC (*) Championship Game following a late interception by Brett Favre. For 10 points--Adrian Peterson plays for what team whose home stadium, the Metrodome, is in the Twin Cities?


11/5/5 in 18 rooms at Ohio and New Jersey states, which is too many powers.

Also 3/0/0 in 3 rooms at Minnesota states, but any plausible tossup on this answer will be powered there.

I'm a proud contributer to one of those 11 powers :). Fran Tarkenton is a dead giveaway, likewise with Randy Moss.
And Mike, my apologies, I wasn't too sure how to accurately say what I wanted to without it being cryptic, hehe.



IIRC this tossup was powered in Canada before Fran Tarkenton o_O
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Mechanical Beasts » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:35 pm

Well, some high school seniors had barely started elementary school in 1998; I'd say that the power mark should probably have been before Moss, but definitely should be after Cunningham.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Partido Galeguista » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:09 pm

Mechanical Beasts wrote:Well, some high school seniors had barely started elementary school in 1998; I'd say that the power mark should probably have been before Moss, but definitely should be after Cunningham.


I'm gonna agree with this. Randy Moss was still on the Vikings as of '04-ish, making him modern. People with a true interest in any sport tend to read up on the history of the sport (ie. just because I was born in '88 I could still tell you about the history of basketball/hockey when I was high school), so it makes sense that these people should be rewarded within power. One may think "Fran Tarkenton" is easy, and it (truly) is to a football fan, but it's still worthy of power as it shows you have a level of knowledge beyond "casual watching". Andy's placement of the power mark would be a good one, as Randall Cunningham is bordering history of football (ie. something you would look up and learn about because you love the game) for current high schoolers.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Sniper, No Sniping! » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:06 pm

FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised if most, if not all, of the negs came off the Randall Cunningham clue, as he is better known as the QB for the Eagles post-Ron Jaworski.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Mechanical Beasts » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:30 pm

Ulster Clay Pigeon Shooting Association wrote:FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised if most, if not all, of the negs came off the Randall Cunningham clue, as he is better known as the QB for the Eagles post-Ron Jaworski.

Pretty well deserved, though. Given the year, Fran Tarkenton, and everything else, it's pretty far from a hose.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Inkana7 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:35 pm

fourplustwo wrote:
Ulster Clay Pigeon Shooting Association wrote:
bt_green_warbler wrote:
IS #105 round 9 wrote:Bud Grant coached this NFC team to four Super Bowls, three with quarterback Fran Tarkenton, but lost all four. In 1998 it averaged nearly 35 points per game with Randall Cunningham throwing to Randy Moss. In January 2010 it lost the NFC (*) Championship Game following a late interception by Brett Favre. For 10 points--Adrian Peterson plays for what team whose home stadium, the Metrodome, is in the Twin Cities?


11/5/5 in 18 rooms at Ohio and New Jersey states, which is too many powers.

Also 3/0/0 in 3 rooms at Minnesota states, but any plausible tossup on this answer will be powered there.

I'm a proud contributer to one of those 11 powers :). Fran Tarkenton is a dead giveaway, likewise with Randy Moss.
And Mike, my apologies, I wasn't too sure how to accurately say what I wanted to without it being cryptic, hehe.



IIRC this tossup was powered in Canada before Fran Tarkenton o_O

Bud Grant coached in Canada as well.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Coelacanth » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:33 am

Inkana7 wrote:
fourplustwo wrote:
Ulster Clay Pigeon Shooting Association wrote:
bt_green_warbler wrote:
IS #105 round 9 wrote:Bud Grant coached this NFC team to four Super Bowls, three with quarterback Fran Tarkenton, but lost all four. In 1998 it averaged nearly 35 points per game with Randall Cunningham throwing to Randy Moss. In January 2010 it lost the NFC (*) Championship Game following a late interception by Brett Favre. For 10 points--Adrian Peterson plays for what team whose home stadium, the Metrodome, is in the Twin Cities?


11/5/5 in 18 rooms at Ohio and New Jersey states, which is too many powers.

Also 3/0/0 in 3 rooms at Minnesota states, but any plausible tossup on this answer will be powered there.

I'm a proud contributer to one of those 11 powers :). Fran Tarkenton is a dead giveaway, likewise with Randy Moss.
And Mike, my apologies, I wasn't too sure how to accurately say what I wanted to without it being cryptic, hehe.



IIRC this tossup was powered in Canada before Fran Tarkenton o_O

Bud Grant coached in Canada as well.

Yea, the answer line should really include "accept Winnipeg Blue Bombers before 'NFC'". There is probably a non-zero number of Canadian players who would buzz with that answer after the first three words.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby Yellow-throated Honeyeater » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:50 am

Actually, it should start, "This NFL team was coached by Bud Grant..."
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sets: question-specific discussion

Postby theMoMA » Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:16 am

Yes, starting questions with unambiguous pronouns referring to the answer is a very, very important thing, especially shorter tossups. It's hard to do as an NAQT writer and editor (as I've been reminded recently) but it's especially essential when the short amount of cluespace makes it more likely that people will be buzzing on the earlier clues.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Francis the Talking France » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:54 pm

If you pay attention to sports enough and you play quiz bowl, you must have a knack for remembering facts in sports. I personally have no problem answering a sports question within the first 5 or 6 words usually unless I'm nervous or something. They really seem more like questions to boost the self-esteem of a team that doesn't really study quiz bowl, but more or less comes in and tries to win without looking at much of anything and just remembering things they learned on TV or in class. To be honest, I think it'd be a good idea in itself just to have a sports only tournament for the kids that really like sports. Though it seems like there aren't that many kids that are obsessed like I am with sports, I'd love to go to a tournament with just sports or even just trash for fun. Those do occur at the college level sometimes don't they?

As it's been said before, sports shouldn't and most of the time don't effect the outcome of a game, so having one or two questions per game shouldn't hurt.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Fake 4-ball » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:59 pm

Technically any game with a difference of 45 or less could have been decided by a trash question. If I was playing and lost to a team by 20 points when they 30'd a bonus on, for instance, major chicken chain restaurants (this led to a 30 second pause in the game I read this packet for due to laughter), I might get a little annoyed.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Sniper, No Sniping! » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:05 am

MattNC wrote:If you pay attention to sports enough and you play quiz bowl, you must have a knack for remembering facts in sports. I personally have no problem answering a sports question within the first 5 or 6 words usually unless I'm nervous or something. They really seem more like questions to boost the self-esteem of a team that doesn't really study quiz bowl, but more or less comes in and tries to win without looking at much of anything and just remembering things they learned on TV or in class. To be honest, I think it'd be a good idea in itself just to have a sports only tournament for the kids that really like sports. Though it seems like there aren't that many kids that are obsessed like I am with sports, I'd love to go to a tournament with just sports or even just trash for fun. Those do occur at the college level sometimes don't they?

As it's been said before, sports shouldn't and most of the time don't effect the outcome of a game, so having one or two questions per game shouldn't hurt.

In Ohio there is a trash tournament that is held every year with a mirror or two occurring on the same day. I don't know about other regions, however, and what there is trash-only wise. I personally don't mind the sports questions, but I know many people feel extremely annoyed about them, which all I can say is this, you know your going to hear sports questions, its no ones fault but your own you don't know the answer to a question in an Academic Competition. One argument I think against sports questions at the HSNCT is "Not knowing the Orlando Magic swings the game and can hurt us because we don't watch ESPN 24/7", which while it can swing the game, unless your getting the maximum points you can get on the academic topics, like 30ing bonuses, the "non academia come on brah" excuse doesn't mean nothing.

And at Robert - but knowing somewhat academic things, such as chain restaurants, isn't a bad thing and I don't see how it could be annoying that you know your companies.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Strange Fascination » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:55 am

An issue with sports is canon size as well. At least by NAQT standards, any team in the Big Four leagues is fair game, as well as many college teams, not to mention athletes and international players, leagues, etc. as well as concepts (see "relegation"). There are at least 200 tossupable things, each having a nearly bottomless depth. With a baseball team, you can have a century or more of stats, players, moments, and games from which you can draw the first few clues from. It's not like, for example, Greco-Roman myth, where you can tossup maybe 30 or 40 different people and a handful of topics, each with a finite and relatively small pool of information. You can't really study for sports with the intent to power questions because there's just so much information.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Cheynem » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:49 am

Wait...chicken restaurants are "somewhat academic?"
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Strange Fascination » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:26 am

Cheynem wrote:Wait...chicken restaurants are "somewhat academic?"


Wait, how did I miss that? You can't make the case that chicken restaurants (or any trash) are somewhat academic
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby theflyingdeutschman » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:45 am

Hayley Legg wrote:
Cheynem wrote:Wait...chicken restaurants are "somewhat academic?"


Wait, how did I miss that? You can't make the case that chicken restaurants (or any trash) are somewhat academic


IMHO Jackie Robinson and 2001 are academic, but let's not start this debate again...
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Sniper, No Sniping! » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:30 pm

Cheynem wrote:Wait...chicken restaurants are "somewhat academic?"

Knowing companies and their operations would be an equivalent to current events/ (maybe GK?)/

And yeah, in hindsight theres no point in making this debate in this thread, or really on the board for this matter.

EDIT 2: Yeah this wasn't a good idea making this argument... haha
Last edited by Sniper, No Sniping! on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Down and out in Quintana Roo » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:33 pm

Ulster Clay Pigeon Shooting Association wrote:
Cheynem wrote:Wait...chicken restaurants are "somewhat academic?"

Knowing companies and their operations would be an equivalent to current events/ (maybe GK?)/

No.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Francis the Talking France » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:08 pm

I feel that Sports at least, you need to have studied or remembered to get the questions right. Questions about chicken chains are more of a laugh than anything.

I think we should analyze some sports questions to look at power placement and difficulty for the general quiz bowling sports fan.

I remember Tony LaRussa and the Baltimore Ravens as notable sports questions from IS-96 I believe..
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:30 pm

IS #105:

All tossups: 84.8% conversion, 25.8% power

Sports tossups: 76.2% conversion, 35.4% power


HSNCT:

All tossups: 82.3% conversion, 20.5% power

Sports tossups: 76.8% conversion, 31.2% power

As I concluded in the HSNCT thread: we should do a better job of selecting answerable tossups with easy giveaways, but the leadins could probably be just a bit harder.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Sniper, No Sniping! » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:33 pm

I don't think you can route memorize sports.


Can you post the Chris Johnson tossup from IS-96 please with the conversion rate, please?
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:04 pm

IS #98 round 6 wrote:In his last college game, this running back led his team to an upset win over Boise State at the 2007 Hawaii Bowl. His skill as a return specialist made him an All-Conference USA player at East Carolina. The fifth running back taken in the 2008 NFL draft, he paired with (*) LenDale White as an NFL rookie. For 10 points--name this player who had over 2,000 rushing yards in the 2009 season for the Tennessee Titans.


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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Francis the Talking France » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:48 pm

I'd like to know the Baltimore Ravens conversion on IS-96, I think the question asked about Troy Smith and/or Kyle Boller?
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:28 am

We don't have any conversion data for that tossup.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Madagascar Serpent Eagle » Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:50 am

Ulster Clay Pigeon Shooting Association wrote: all I can say is this, you know your going to hear sports questions, its no ones fault but your own you don't know the answer to a question in an Academic Competition. One argument I think against sports questions at the HSNCT is "Not knowing the Orlando Magic swings the game and can hurt us because we don't watch ESPN 24/7", which while it can swing the game, unless your getting the maximum points you can get on the academic topics, like 30ing bonuses, the "non academia come on brah" excuse doesn't mean nothing.

And at Robert - but knowing somewhat academic things, such as chain restaurants, isn't a bad thing and I don't see how it could be annoying that you know your companies.


Are you serious? Did you not read a single of my posts in this thread? Many games are decided on one or two tossup margins, and when the winning team gets the trash that may indicate that the best academic team didn't win, which is never acceptable. And you don't have to know all the academic stuff to win, just more than your opponents. When you know only a little bit more, you should still win, unless they get the trash. I don't understand how that's even arguable, and reading my earlier posts will explain that in much greater detail. And, quizbowl is about learning important stuff. Traditional academic stuff and good current events, namely politics, are important, but chicken restaurants are not.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Sniper, No Sniping! » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:30 pm

Plan Rubber wrote:
Ulster Clay Pigeon Shooting Association wrote: all I can say is this, you know your going to hear sports questions, its no ones fault but your own you don't know the answer to a question in an Academic Competition. One argument I think against sports questions at the HSNCT is "Not knowing the Orlando Magic swings the game and can hurt us because we don't watch ESPN 24/7", which while it can swing the game, unless your getting the maximum points you can get on the academic topics, like 30ing bonuses, the "non academia come on brah" excuse doesn't mean nothing.

And at Robert - but knowing somewhat academic things, such as chain restaurants, isn't a bad thing and I don't see how it could be annoying that you know your companies.


Are you serious? Did you not read a single of my posts in this thread? Many games are decided on one or two tossup margins, and when the winning team gets the trash that may indicate that the best academic team didn't win, which is never acceptable. And you don't have to know all the academic stuff to win, just more than your opponents. When you know only a little bit more, you should still win, unless they get the trash. I don't understand how that's even arguable, and reading my earlier posts will explain that in much greater detail. And, quizbowl is about learning important stuff. Traditional academic stuff and good current events, namely politics, are important, but chicken restaurants are not.

I've seen the "light" about the chicken restaurants thing, which wasn't a smart thing to argue.
EDIT: Didn't we already have this argument before?
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby InspectorHound » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:11 pm

The most important points of Joe's argument have nothing to do with chicken restaurants.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Sniper, No Sniping! » Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:13 pm

InspectorHound wrote:The most important points of Joe's argument have nothing to do with chicken restaurants.

That was established from the beginning. The portion of my post proceeding "EDIT" was concerning the trash/sports debate that had already occurred in this thread, not chicken restaurants.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Smuttynose Island » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:26 pm

Plan Rubber wrote:Are you serious? Did you not read a single of my posts in this thread? Many games are decided on one or two tossup margins, and when the winning team gets the trash that may indicate that the best academic team didn't win, which is never acceptable. And you don't have to know all the academic stuff to win, just more than your opponents. When you know only a little bit more, you should still win, unless they get the trash. I don't understand how that's even arguable, and reading my earlier posts will explain that in much greater detail. And, quizbowl is about learning important stuff. Traditional academic stuff and good current events, namely politics, are important, but chicken restaurants are not.


It's always been my understanding that quizbowl has always been about knowing more of the things asked in a set than your opponent, not just what you think should be asked. I personally believe that sports and the like do deserve a place in regular quizbowl events because, no matter what anyone says, the do play a meaningful role in many peoples lives. Also I've never understood the argument that "If we lose a close game, but they get the trash questions, then it's the trash questions' fault that we lost." The same logic applies equally to any of the tossups (and even sometimes bonus parts) that you missed and the other team got. In a close game where you lose by one tossup, it's no less the "fault" of that tossup on the Seattle Seahawks that the other team powered then it is the tossup on the Pullman Strike that you didn't get. Getting either one of those tossups could have put you on top just as likely as the other one could have. Ultimately; however, it is really meaningless to assign blame for a loss on the questions (when they are well-written), because the blame only lies on one group: your team. You only have yourself to blame for a loss, because you only have yourself to blame for not knowing more things (at least on that packet) than the other team did.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Madagascar Serpent Eagle » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:27 am

Smuttynose Island wrote:It's always been my understanding that quizbowl has always been about knowing more of the things asked in a set than your opponent, not just what you think should be asked. I personally believe that sports and the like do deserve a place in regular quizbowl events because, no matter what anyone says, the do play a meaningful role in many peoples lives.

Sure, but, as I said before, there are lots of things that impact people's lives that aren't academic, but they don't get asked about, and for good reason. The whole point of quizbowl is learning about things that matter: important concepts in science and history, major works of literary importance, etc. I don't see how most sports (with exceptions for things like Jackie Robinson) fits with that.

Also I've never understood the argument that "If we lose a close game, but they get the trash questions, then it's the trash questions' fault that we lost." The same logic applies equally to any of the tossups (and even sometimes bonus parts) that you missed and the other team got. In a close game where you lose by one tossup, it's no less the "fault" of that tossup on the Seattle Seahawks that the other team powered then it is the tossup on the Pullman Strike that you didn't get. Getting either one of those tossups could have put you on top just as likely as the other one could have. Ultimately; however, it is really meaningless to assign blame for a loss on the questions (when they are well-written), because the blame only lies on one group: your team. You only have yourself to blame for a loss, because you only have yourself to blame for not knowing more things (at least on that packet) than the other team did.


But say there's a 21 TU HSNCT game in which Team A and B both get 10 academic questions. This should be decided on who has better bonus conversion, but if there was a trash TU that team B got, they could easily win even with far inferior bonus conversion on academic topics. Team A could also have won by having super amazing bonus conversion or getting an extra academic TU, buy they shouldn't have needed to to win that game. They should have needed to know more academic stuff, which would show in their bonus conversion and given them the win, not more academic stuff and the Seahawks.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:42 am

So now all tournaments that use trash questions (almost every tournament ever run) are illegitimate because they don't please Joe Nutter's sense of what the distribution should be?
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Yellow-throated Honeyeater » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:00 pm

I think people are arguing because they are answering different questions.
1) As a team/student, how much should sports/pop culture impact which academic tournaments I enter and how much legitimacy I attach to the results?
2) As a team/student, how should I prepare for tournaments?
3) As an editor/TD, what role should sports/pop culture play in my tournament?

If you're answering #1, then I think the answer almost has to be very little. In Quizbowl, overall quality can differ significantly between tournaments, and teams only have enough time and money to get to certain tournaments, so it's difficult to turn down a good tournament that has 2/2 Pop Culture even if you hate Pop Culture or conversely to turn down a good tournament that has 0/0 Pop Culture even if you want Pop Culture. Also, while we all have tournaments we consider more important and valid than others, that only goes so far, and there isn't much point in claiming that results are invalid because the distribution misses your ideal by 1/1 or whatever. However, there have been times when people on these forums have said that they place more value on NSC than HSNCT (or ACF than ICT) in part because of distribution differences, so it's not some crazy idea.

If you're answering #2, my opinion is that if your goal is to improve in academic Quizbowl, then studying Sports/Pop Culture is an inefficient use of your time. It's a big answer space for a small part of the distribution, and that's not going to change. Opinions vary on this, so do what you feel is best.

If you're answering #3, you probably have to also ask to what degree your tournament is trying to attract people to quizbowl and to what degree it is trying to pick the more knowledgeable team, and you are also in a role where you get to decide whether or not knowledge sports/pop culture has some value that should be used to differentiate between quizbowl teams. If you think it does have value, then you get to decide how much value, and you also get to decide whether it only has value when it is big stuff like Jackie Robinson and Citizen Kane or whether you want to ask about Paul Konerko and Lightning McQueen too.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Madagascar Serpent Eagle » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:18 pm

College Park Spyders wrote:So now all tournaments that use trash questions (almost every tournament ever run) are illegitimate because they don't please Joe Nutter's sense of what the distribution should be?


My original arguments were twofold: first, remove trash from the HSNCT; secondly, make trash, particularly sports, have accessible answerlines with giveaways to avoid them going dead in rooms without sports fans. While I'd prefer all tournaments not to have trash, I recognize the argument that it attracts newer teams and am OK with it in regular season tournaments, but this isn't applicable to nationals like the HSNCT. Sorry those two separate arguments got conflated here.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Sniper, No Sniping! » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:46 pm

Plan Rubber wrote:
College Park Spyders wrote:So now all tournaments that use trash questions (almost every tournament ever run) are illegitimate because they don't please Joe Nutter's sense of what the distribution should be?


My original arguments were twofold: first, remove trash from the HSNCT; secondly, make trash, particularly sports, have accessible answerlines with giveaways to avoid them going dead in rooms without sports fans.

Since I'm inferring that you're not a sports fan, can you give an example of what an ideal answer line for this situation would be?
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Francis the Talking France » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:56 pm

Ulster Clay Pigeon Shooting Association wrote:
Plan Rubber wrote:
College Park Spyders wrote:So now all tournaments that use trash questions (almost every tournament ever run) are illegitimate because they don't please Joe Nutter's sense of what the distribution should be?


My original arguments were twofold: first, remove trash from the HSNCT; secondly, make trash, particularly sports, have accessible answerlines with giveaways to avoid them going dead in rooms without sports fans.

Since I'm inferring that you're not a sports fan, can you give an example of what an ideal answer line for this situation would be?


To be honest, if you're not a fan of sports or any sport for that matter, you can't really have a good answer line for any question. That seems to be the discrepancy that he's getting at. I could personally do without the 2nd half of the question for 95% of sports questions, because besides quiz bowl, school and video games, sports are my life (moreso watching than playing now).

Also, how many rooms don't have a single sports fan?
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Sniper, No Sniping! » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:26 pm

To be honest, if you're not a fan of sports or any sport for that matter, you can't really have a good answer line for any question. That seems to be the discrepancy that he's getting at. I could personally do without the 2nd half of the question for 95% of sports questions, because besides quiz bowl, school and video games, sports are my life (moreso watching than playing now).

Exactly. Theres really not much of a point to force a vendor to have sports questions with "non sports fan" friendly answerlines, not to mention making the question writer make a 3-7 line tossup on that answerline.

Also, how many rooms don't have a single sports fan?

Its not all that unlikely (ever been to a tournament in Ohio? joking, of course). We played Walnut Hills (Joe Nutter's team) during the round where the Chris Johnson tossup was heard. Unfortunately, I sat out for that one, and we ended up being one of the few rooms that went without converting that tossup. Ironically enough. I was the only starter from my team from this past season that didn't play a sport, yet I'm the only one that played at any circuit events that knows sports, let alone on the TV show we were on I was the only one who converted big on the sports questions.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Francis the Talking France » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:31 pm

Ulster Clay Pigeon Shooting Association wrote:
To be honest, if you're not a fan of sports or any sport for that matter, you can't really have a good answer line for any question. That seems to be the discrepancy that he's getting at. I could personally do without the 2nd half of the question for 95% of sports questions, because besides quiz bowl, school and video games, sports are my life (moreso watching than playing now).

Exactly. Theres really not much of a point to force a vendor to have sports questions with "non sports fan" friendly answerlines, not to mention making the question writer make a 3-7 line tossup on that answerline.

Also, how many rooms don't have a single sports fan?

Its not all that unlikely (ever been to a tournament in Ohio? joking, of course). We played Walnut Hills (Joe Nutter's team) during the round where the Chris Johnson tossup was heard. Unfortunately, I sat out for that one, and we ended up being one of the few rooms that went without converting that tossup. Ironically enough. I was the only starter from my team from this past season that didn't play a sport, yet I'm the only one that played at any circuit events that knows sports, let alone on the TV show we were on I was the only one who converted big on the sports questions.


For sports questions, the questions aren't that hard if you pay attention to sports. If you don't know sports, then you're screwed. There could definitely be questions that stump everyone if they are difficult enough, because even for sports questions you can stump a passionate sports fan if the clues are difficult. Of course not everyone in quiz bowl is, so there has to be a happy medium where the questions before the power mark aren't THAT difficult, but the questions after power mark are very simple. For the Chris Johnson one, I think East Carolina was the giveaway for me which would've been 4 or 5 words before the powermark.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Madagascar Serpent Eagle » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:36 pm

Ulster Clay Pigeon Shooting Association wrote:
Plan Rubber wrote:
College Park Spyders wrote:So now all tournaments that use trash questions (almost every tournament ever run) are illegitimate because they don't please Joe Nutter's sense of what the distribution should be?


My original arguments were twofold: first, remove trash from the HSNCT; secondly, make trash, particularly sports, have accessible answerlines with giveaways to avoid them going dead in rooms without sports fans.

Since I'm inferring that you're not a sports fan, can you give an example of what an ideal answer line for this situation would be?


Things of historical importance, like Jackie Robinson. Things important to a sport's development, like Babe Ruth. Current teams that have been in the news and are notable like, teams that win important things. For that matter, even doing things like writing on teams and not players would help - how many people can think of a football team that plays in Tennessee and not Chris Johnson?

Also, how many rooms don't have a single sports fan?

Presumably a lot, seeing as HSNCT sports had a significanty lower conversion rate than the all-subject average.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Sniper, No Sniping! » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:06 pm

Plan Rubber wrote:Things of historical importance, like Jackie Robinson. Things important to a sport's development, like Babe Ruth. Current teams that have been in the news and are notable like, teams that win important things. For that matter, even doing things like writing on teams and not players would help - how many people can think of a football team that plays in Tennessee and not Chris Johnson?


While I do agree that writing tossups on players is something that is probably more accessible for sports fans, doing the "historical importance" approach can greatly reduce the canon or make an even lower conversion rate. Why? Because theres only a select few "accessible" figures in sports development. Babe Ruth, Gordie Howe are in theory accessible. Satchel Paige, Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Wilt Chamberlain probably aren't to non sports fans.
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Re: 2010-11 NAQT IS sports question discussion

Postby Francis the Talking France » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:38 pm

Presumably a lot, seeing as HSNCT sports had a significantly lower conversion rate than the all-subject average.

So because people at HSNCT can't answer sports as well as other subjects, that means that sports questions don't matter and shouldn't be there? There are some teams that just play this for fun without much studying and the smile on that kid's face when he gets a sports question after daydreaming through those science and lit questions is quite amusing and great. That's what makes quiz bowl so fun and diverse. The fact that some teams study a lot and do better than others, but then there are other teams that are just there to have fun, learn things and get some questions right.

Now I do study some, but not a ton, and I feel so positive after I power a sports question that I feel that I can do anything to change the game after that question. Quiz Bowl IS about having fun and attracting as many people as possible to it, and then once they get the gist of what is expected, they go and get better and progress.
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