Should middle school tournaments used timed rounds?

Dormant threads from the middle school section are preserved here.
Locked
User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5647
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm

Should middle school tournaments used timed rounds?

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Will NAQT's middle school program use identical rules to all other official NAQT events? If so, it seems to me that perhaps in a highly disorganized circuit where timed matches are presumably unheard of, and very few teams have gotten the chance to have real experience with pyramidal questions, keeping the timed matches, along with the shorter amount of time to answer a tossup after you buzz in, could really badly backfire at nationals by overwhelming teams. I would strongly consider changing the rules to make things more player friendly for this event, which should mostly be made up of what are effectively brand new teams anyway.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White
User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 6113
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by Important Bird Area »

Middle school tournaments will use the standard NAQT official rules. Just like high school tournaments, individual tournament hosts are free to choose timed or untimed rounds as will best suit the teams in attendance.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5647
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

I'm speaking more about nationals. I think more than anywhere, using official NAQT rules at this national tournament could be incredibly problematic or off-putting to teams in your target audience.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White
User avatar
Stephen Colbert
Wakka
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:12 am

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by Stephen Colbert »

Will the 2011 NAQT MSNCT use timed rounds? Am I the only person who views this as possibly problematic? Have any of the qualifying tournaments been on the clock? If so, I would love to hear about those experiences.
Nathan Hollinsaid
Coach, St. Anthony Streator (2004-2007)
IHSSBCA Performance & Test-Certified Moderator
User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 6113
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by Important Bird Area »

Stephen Colbert wrote:Will the 2011 NAQT MSNCT use timed rounds? Am I the only person who views this as possibly problematic? Have any of the qualifying tournaments been on the clock? If so, I would love to hear about those experiences.
Yes, MSNCT will use timed rounds.

No, you're not the only one who has expressed concern about that fact.

Yes, some of the qualifiers have used timed rounds.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
User avatar
Stephen Colbert
Wakka
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:12 am

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by Stephen Colbert »

bt_green_warbler wrote:Yes, MSNCT will use timed rounds.

No, you're not the only one who has expressed concern about that fact.

Yes, some of the qualifiers have used timed rounds.
Thanks for your prompt reply. I'm glad to see that some of the qualifying tournaments have used timed rounds, though the TUH seem low. I'm curious to see how middle school teams adjust to playing on the clock.
Nathan Hollinsaid
Coach, St. Anthony Streator (2004-2007)
IHSSBCA Performance & Test-Certified Moderator
User avatar
the return of AHAN
Auron
Posts: 1988
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:40 pm

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by the return of AHAN »

GREAT SCOTT! I see it now. The champs of the linked tournament only heard between 13 and 17 TU a game, and 18 appears to be the most anyone heard. That high end isn't so bad, but I'll be incensed if an important game is decided on < 15 TU! OTOH, my A team powered the heck out of MS-01, so maybe that would lead to more TU being heard.
Jeff Price
Barrington High School Coach (2021 & 2023 HSNCT Champions, 2023 PACE Champions, 2023 Illinois Masonic Bowl Class 3A State Champions)
Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 6113
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by Important Bird Area »

I think it's a very safe bet that the MSNCT moderators will be faster than the moderators at a school hosting its very first pyramidal tournament.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
User avatar
Stephen Colbert
Wakka
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:12 am

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by Stephen Colbert »

I'm not so sure moderator speed will be the only factor in increasing the number of toss-ups heard each round. Players unfamiliar with timed rounds, especially middle school players, tend not to play with a sense of urgency related to being on the clock. Middle school teams (particularly the inexperienced) are more likely to use the maximum amount of time conferring on each bonus part, transition incredibly slowly from one question to the next, wait to be recognized by the moderator on toss-ups, etc. In general, they're trained to play the game at a somewhat slower pace. Sure, good moderators will prevent most of these occurrences. But, I would strongly urge NAQT to consider either extending the time period or doing away with the clock entirely.
Nathan Hollinsaid
Coach, St. Anthony Streator (2004-2007)
IHSSBCA Performance & Test-Certified Moderator
User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5647
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Yeah, nothing has changed to convince me that timed middle school rounds isn't a bad idea.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White
User avatar
cvdwightw
Auron
Posts: 3291
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Southern CA
Contact:

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by cvdwightw »

I'm going to make the possibly-radical suggestion, and I guess this is as good a place to do it, that NAQT strongly consider using ten-minute halves at all levels of competition. Yes, the middle school questions are shorter, but middle schoolers also have a tendency to do things that slow down the game, and especially at the local level, there's not a whole lot the moderator can do about it. At the high school level, NAQT questions have, on average, gotten both longer and more accessible, meaning that 20 tossups takes longer to read in 2011 than it did in 2001. This is especially a problem noted at HSNCT, where even competent moderators had difficulty getting through 20 questions last year and I shudder to think about the less-competent ones. Unifying the timing rules across levels also removes the timing dilemma inherent in high school tournaments using a D2 SCT/ICT set. Again, this is something I strongly encourage NAQT to explore.
Dwight Wynne
socalquizbowl.org
UC Irvine 2008-2013; UCLA 2004-2007; Capistrano Valley High School 2000-2003

"It's a competition, but it's not a sport. On a scale, if football is a 10, then rowing would be a two. One would be Quiz Bowl." --Matt Birk on rowing, SI On Campus, 10/21/03

"If you were my teammate, I would have tossed your ass out the door so fast you'd be emitting Cerenkov radiation, but I'm not classy like Dwight." --Jerry
User avatar
Mechanical Beasts
Banned Cheater
Posts: 5673
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:50 pm

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

cvdwightw wrote:I'm going to make the possibly-radical suggestion, and I guess this is as good a place to do it, that NAQT strongly consider using ten-minute halves at all levels of competition. Yes, the middle school questions are shorter, but middle schoolers also have a tendency to do things that slow down the game, and especially at the local level, there's not a whole lot the moderator can do about it. At the high school level, NAQT questions have, on average, gotten both longer and more accessible, meaning that 20 tossups takes longer to read in 2011 than it did in 2001. This is especially a problem noted at HSNCT, where even competent moderators had difficulty getting through 20 questions last year and I shudder to think about the less-competent ones. Unifying the timing rules across levels also removes the timing dilemma inherent in high school tournaments using a D2 SCT/ICT set. Again, this is something I strongly encourage NAQT to explore.
A+. Also, eliminating the clock at competitive levels of play (national tournaments, sectionals) where the excitement or novelty or distinction of timed rounds aren't actually important to attract converts from some other type of quizbowl (or whatever the general argument is).
Andrew Watkins
User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 6113
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by Important Bird Area »

Devil's advocate for a second: the major pro-clock argument is not "it's exciting for players who play timed rounds in non-NAQT formats!" but rather "timed rounds keep the tournament as a whole on a fixed schedule."

(I am entirely ambivalent about timed rounds at tournaments with high-quality staff pools- ICT, HSNCT, and I would argue MSNCT as well. The clock-delenda-est thing is for SCT, where we know the average moderator will have less experience.)
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
User avatar
Auroni
Auron
Posts: 3145
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:23 pm

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by Auroni »

So long as NAQT is incredibly careful about designating which invited staffers are allowed to read and which are allowed to scorekeep, the tournament as a whole will go as scheduled with untimed rounds.
Auroni Gupta (she/her)
User avatar
theMoMA
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5993
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:00 am

Re: Should middle school tournaments used timed rounds?

Post by theMoMA »

If that's the concern, why not go with twelve-minute halves? Moderators can read at a reasonable yet still time-constrained pace, tender middle school ears won't have to hear super-fast reading, and the extra four minutes per round only add up to an extra hour at max.
Andrew Hart
Minnesota alum
User avatar
Mechanical Beasts
Banned Cheater
Posts: 5673
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:50 pm

Re: NAQT's middle school program

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

bt_green_warbler wrote:(I am entirely ambivalent about timed rounds at tournaments with high-quality staff pools- ICT
I'm not. The argument NAQT has made in the past in favor of shorter tossups was that shorter tossups permits more tossups per packet, and that their division of effectively a fixed amount of clue-reading time among more tossups differentiates better than, or at the very least differentiates as well as, dividing that same reading time among fewer longer tossups. This all falls apart when there are just fewer clues per round. Harvard played two 21 tossup rounds at ICT--even though in those rounds, the two teams combined to power 9 and 10 tossups. Even though the round was being played unusually quickly, we only heard one more tossup than an ACF round, and therefore many fewer clues to differentiate. Now, of course, ICT lacks the college readers that staff HS- and MSNCT, but it's also a far smaller tournament. I'm not actually sure timed rounds* have as few deleterious effects, even at such events, as you claim.

*of course, if we go with Andrew's suggestion and implement timed rounds where there's rarely any danger that the whole packet doesn't get read because the time is so long, well, fine--separate issue. (Similarly, if a timer went off two minutes after each ACF round finished, no one would notice or care.)
Andrew Watkins
Locked