Don't like losing to grad students? Do the same thing you should do when you don't like losing to anyone else: get better.
I never stated my reasoning was fear of losing to grad players.
Oh hay we haven't seen some grad student bashing for a while. I too enjoyed this trip to 2004
I did not bash anyone, that is something best left to you. I moved for a separation of divisions based on level of education, whereas to reflect a more equal playing field, given that graduate players are more likely
to be in a more advantageous position for success. I have since reformulated my position, slightly, noted at the end of this post.
Undergraduate teams, and undergraduate players, routinely go neck and neck with any opposition at any level. Even high school teams routinely beat graduate students by a lot (HIGH SCHOOL)
As I noted prior, to no avail, the best team's ability to compete with those of higher experience and education does not disprove the notion of having more logical divisions. Of course, statistically speaking, the upper end of UGs will be able to compete against the very best, as proved by the numerous examples out there, but what of those not in that tier? Mid-tier players, who are the statistical majority, should not be precluded from leveled competition or the ICT altogether by their virtue of not being as good (if that is the real or attributed case). the redundant argument that, "those players should stop sucking and get better GOD DAMN IT, FUCK YOU AND THEM," does not mean that every player who is not at the level of national contention is that way because of the prior statement. Even in a perfect quizbowl world with panda buzzers and every player putting in the exact same amount of time and possessing the same skill, there would still be a number of teams that would have had a chance to at the least compete at ICT, but would be denied a berth because they are competing (since they have no more D2 eligibility) for such against those with distinct advantages. Even though panda buzzers and the theoretical notion of an even field is not probable, teams should not be precluded from the ICT when they could play in a D2 against others with like experience and education, instead of either getting destroyed in ICT D1 altogether or not qualifying because D1 is mixture of players with uneven experience and education.
I'm a grad student and I have lost to a bunch of high schoolers and undergraduate teams. Being in grad school does not automatically turn you into a great player.
True. It is not an absolute. But it is only sensible that a new graduate player will have a an advantage against a new undergraduate. But to rectify such see my proposed model.
What makes people good quizbowl players is their ability to remember shit and recall it in questions. Dedicating years of your life to specialized study won't do anything but make you better at that specialized thing.
Yes...but, for example, if I am a history undergraduate student, then it is only logical to assume that, on average, the history masters' student will have been exposed to more history throughout his academic career, and unless you specialize in the George Washington's boot straps, graduate programs tend to be broader than you imply, like American History to 1865 or Military History. And again, making it to that level of education generally indicates undergraduate work in the broad field of history, which requires certain historical parameters be met with respect to historical era and regions. The idea that a graduate student has an advantage over an UG is not implicit with the grad being better at everything in quizbowl, just that they have a predisposition to be better than UGs.(with regards to the information they will have been exposed to through their study)
Obviously again, people like Dallas and Shantanu are different. I am not saying that they didn't get to their level by hard work and the like, just that the average player or even average good player is not that good that early, and that is not completely attributable to those lesser players slacking on their dedication habits.It probably contributes in most cases, but Dallas and Shantanu (again for example) attend Harvard and Chicago, which are two of the best schools available, ergo they are special with regards to their mental abilities, hence they are probably going to be pretty good at something like quizbowl. And, yes, attending a less prestigious college does not mean inferior ability or students, just pointing out that a lot of these phenoms attend places like Harvard and the like, as opposed to West Florida :).
You get better by working to get better through such means as: writing good questions, looking up things you expect to be answers in the future and learning facts about them, reading books, and playing good questions at practice.
Again, this was never a discussion on getting better, sucking or the like, it just took the Weinerian jump to avoid the focus of my argument and denigrate me and my region, which I am totally fine with.
You do not get better by playing a schedule which mixes a stock of "skipping most tournaments" in with the rancid meat of "high school questions and trash," only occasionally ordering D2 SCT as your most challenging form of cuisine.
Ok, but to remind you, while at UA, I contacted you with the intent of producing a set of higher quality than our region was used too, which you provided (a good set btw). That set was Titanomachy, which was attended by only UA (the host), Tulane, and UGA. Later that year UA also mirrored Princeton's Parfait, with slightly better attendance. The only other collegiate tournaments we ran that academic year was NAQT SCTs and Ragnarok (which was on NAQT IS). So we did an IS tournament, big whoop. We also hosted the other mentioned quality tournaments. We also attended ACF Fall, EFT, and a few UTC tournaments. ACF Regionals was not on our calender after a majority of our players didn't want to write packets, and more importantly we needed to conserve for travel to ICT. Just providing an example of us and the south deviating from our shit quizbowl lives you claim we love.
Oh, I see, you never thought you'd have to defend your point with actual facts so you picked the facts that only superficially even support your claim. You genius, you.
As mentioned prior (God that phrase gets old), NAQT does not distinguish their players in stats, so I went with the one decided stat I had, and still have, with their being only 8 UG teams at that ICT. I am not going to try and track all of those players status' down, you do that, with all that down time you have in anger management.
Who are these nth year students we're talking about? Last I checked the most effective players in collegiate quizbowl right now are a long list of undergrads, first-year grad student Andrew Hart, and second-year grad student Eric Mukherjee. And then Mike, who has played in one event. Maybe we're talking about Selene or something?
I used Andrew as the example of playing in a third decade because he played in the 90s, 00s, and played last year in 2010. This was not a shot at him, as I have no problem with him playing, just that others are subjected to either playing or being left of ICT due to those with his experience. Obviously though, the majority of grads don't have his experience, but I used him as the most exaggerative example regarding experience and the like.
The hypothetical team of 45 year olds is a dumb example because it doesn't exist and never has. The closest thing was that TAMU team (which actually had only 1 player over 28, if my meta knowledge is correct) from like five years ago at this point. And they didn't even play ICT.
Again, so Weinerian, almost Vinokurovian with putting words into my mouth. I never mentioned a team replete with 45 year olds, just the previous Andrew example. In my estimation most grad players are in their early and sometimes mid-20s.
You know why you're getting disrespect and rancor? It's because you are just the latest iteration of the shitty player who makes terrible arguments against grad student participation based on a faulty understanding of the dynamics of the game.
I never argued against grad participation, and I think your argument works best on you. Guess it makes sense with projecting.
You know what would happen if you came to ACF Nationals? You would have your ass handed to you by teams with way less experience than you because those teams know that if you want to win, you have to practice and care about the game.
Yeah, UA (me included) attended ACF Nationals at Vanderbilt. We did suck, going something like 1-11 or so with around a 4 bpc. We lost to everyone but Illinois B, so we lost regardless of experience and education, but you know who beat us the worst? Chicago, with Seth and the gang. Not a problem or a complaint, just examples again.
All that aside, here is my reconfigured idea:Division I
Players are required to compete in this division once they have accrued 4 years of competing at ICT Division II or for ICT Division II (via Division II Sectional).Division II
Players with less than 4 years competing at ICT Division II or for ICT Division II (via Division II Sectional) may choose to try and qualify (and compete if receiving bid), though their Division II eligibility is expended upon qualifying or playing in Division I.
In the event of a sizable plurality participating, the top UG team will be recognized (not as national champion, but in the same light as the top CC team in Division II).
Players eligible for 4 years, regardless of education.
4 year eligibility refers to competing at ICT Division II and also competing for Division II qualification (via Division II Sectional). So a player who fails to qualify for ICT Division II after competing in Division II Sectionals 4 times will be required to compete in Division I.
I have reconfigured the system to allow players, regardless of educational level, to compete in Division II. Mainly to assuage those who feel new grads would be similar to new players in general. I do not occupy this thought entirely, as I still feel grads would have the aforementioned advantage, but this should please both sides, as it concedes that education is not the issue (experience is) while at the same time providing a better structure for leveled competition.
James A. Johnson
University of West Florida
formerly of Alabama and Faulkner State
I am an alum of southern quizbowl, the worst form imaginable, and hope and pray that the bearded quizgods shine down their rotund grace upon us all.