2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:17 pm

styxman wrote:I gotta know what happened in that Vesey question to elicit that many negs. Post the text, please?


2010 HSNCT round 6 wrote:An account of this man was written by James Hamilton, though Hamilton may have simply wanted to embarrass Governor Thomas Bennett. He worked with Monday Gell and Gullah Jack but was foiled after the betrayal of George Wilson. His best-known plan was scheduled for Bastille Day and involved a ship to transport participants to (*) Haiti. For 10 points--name this freed slave who in 1822 tried to lead a rebellion in Charleston.


I have no idea what drew 46 negs on this tossup. I'd expect some rate of minus-fives on this topic just from teams that figure out it's a slave rebellion but only know Nat Turner, but there are lots of clues here that exclude Turner (eg, "Gullah" points to the South Carolina low country... and still no one powered this.)
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby nadph » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:30 pm

bt_green_warbler wrote:Jasper Johns


What tossup was this?

bt_green_warbler wrote:the sewers of Paris


This involved Les Miserables, if I recall correctly. I negged it with "Intestine of the Leviathan," which I think was the name of the section in the novel that describes it - should it have been promptable?

EDIT: I meant to say this as well - how many times was "the sewers of Paris" negged?
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:44 pm

2010 HSNCT round 7 wrote:This man's ~Figure 0~ is a brightly colored lithograph on Japanese Arjomari paper, while he employed graphite powder and graphite wash on polyester for his mid-'60s work ~Numbers~. He would also paint with thick wax, or encaustic, on a canvas, as in ~Perilous Night~, or drip it onto a (*) collage of newspaper. For 10 points--name this contemporary American artist known for his depictions of bulls eyes and flags.


2010 HSNCT round 4 wrote:A museum about this structure lies just south of the Pont de l'Alma. The modern version was designed by Baron Haussmann, and it was the title locale of Harold L. Humes' first novel ~The Underground City~. Near one exit, an escaped (*) convict convinced a police inspector to let him return Marius's body to his family. For 10 points--name this labyrinthine sanitary system that serves as an escape route in ~Les Miserables~.

answer: _Paris sewer_ system (accept similar answers involving _Paris_ and _sewer_s; do not accept "catacombs")


0/51/20 in 67 rooms.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Mechanical Beasts » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:45 pm

bt_green_warbler wrote:
styxman wrote:I gotta know what happened in that Vesey question to elicit that many negs. Post the text, please?


2010 HSNCT round 6 wrote:An account of this man was written by James Hamilton, though Hamilton may have simply wanted to embarrass Governor Thomas Bennett. He worked with Monday Gell and Gullah Jack but was foiled after the betrayal of George Wilson. His best-known plan was scheduled for Bastille Day and involved a ship to transport participants to (*) Haiti. For 10 points--name this freed slave who in 1822 tried to lead a rebellion in Charleston.


I have no idea what drew 46 negs on this tossup. I'd expect some rate of minus-fives on this topic just from teams that figure out it's a slave rebellion but only know Nat Turner, but there are lots of clues here that exclude Turner (eg, "Gullah" points to the South Carolina low country... and still no one powered this.)

As fascinating as the Gullah community is to linguists and anthropologists, there are precious few linguists and anthropologists in high school. If I was feeling adventurous in high school I might have figured "those sound awful like slave names, so this is a slave with a name who is more likely than not going to lead a rebellion later on in the tossup, because this is not how you write a tossup on Dred Scott," and I'd have negged before "foiled" was ever read.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Matthew Jackson » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:55 pm

bt_green_warbler wrote:
styxman wrote:I gotta know what happened in that Vesey question to elicit that many negs. Post the text, please?


2010 HSNCT round 6 wrote:An account of this man was written by James Hamilton, though Hamilton may have simply wanted to embarrass Governor Thomas Bennett. He worked with Monday Gell and Gullah Jack but was foiled after the betrayal of George Wilson. His best-known plan was scheduled for Bastille Day and involved a ship to transport participants to (*) Haiti. For 10 points--name this freed slave who in 1822 tried to lead a rebellion in Charleston.


I have no idea what drew 46 negs on this tossup. I'd expect some rate of minus-fives on this topic just from teams that figure out it's a slave rebellion but only know Nat Turner, but there are lots of clues here that exclude Turner (eg, "Gullah" points to the South Carolina low country... and still no one powered this.)


Yeah, most teams, even at HSNCT, are probably quick to binary-associate "slave revolt" with "Nat Turner" if their high school class hasn't gone into enough depth. Still, 46 negs among 60 or so games is pretty incredible. In looking at this again as someone who 10d it near the giveaway, though, it doesn't surprise me that no one powered. It seems pretty impossible to power unless your lateral-thinking skills lead you from "Gullah Jack" to "South Carolina" to "South Carolina slave revolt" to "Vesey", which is a lot to ask for in a timed round read at a pretty high speed.

Edit: clarity
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Down and out in Quintana Roo » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:11 am

RyuAqua wrote:
bt_green_warbler wrote:
styxman wrote:I gotta know what happened in that Vesey question to elicit that many negs. Post the text, please?


2010 HSNCT round 6 wrote:An account of this man was written by James Hamilton, though Hamilton may have simply wanted to embarrass Governor Thomas Bennett. He worked with Monday Gell and Gullah Jack but was foiled after the betrayal of George Wilson. His best-known plan was scheduled for Bastille Day and involved a ship to transport participants to (*) Haiti. For 10 points--name this freed slave who in 1822 tried to lead a rebellion in Charleston.


I have no idea what drew 46 negs on this tossup. I'd expect some rate of minus-fives on this topic just from teams that figure out it's a slave rebellion but only know Nat Turner, but there are lots of clues here that exclude Turner (eg, "Gullah" points to the South Carolina low country... and still no one powered this.)


Yeah, most teams, even at HSNCT, are probably quick to binary-associate "slave revolt" with "Nat Turner" if their high school class hasn't gone into enough depth. Still, 46 negs among 60 or so games is pretty incredible. In looking at this again as someone who 10d it near the giveaway, though, it doesn't surprise me that no one powered. It seems pretty impossible to power unless your lateral-thinking skills lead you from "Gullah Jack" to "South Carolina" to "South Carolina slave revolt" to "Vesey", which is a lot to ask for in a timed round read at a pretty high speed.

Edit: clarity

And "South Carolina slave revolt" doesn't even only mean Vesey! Since HSNCT apparently asks about really hard crap, i might be thinking "jesus, was there some named leader of the Stono Rebellion that i can't think of?" during this question too.

In other words, it's real hard, and easy to think "well it must just be Nat Turner because who the heck else would NAQT ask about?" for a lot of kids.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:14 am

Carangoides ciliarius wrote:And "South Carolina slave revolt" doesn't even only mean Vesey! Since HSNCT apparently asks about really hard crap, i might be thinking "jesus, was there some named leader of the Stono Rebellion that i can't think of?" during this question too.


Yes, but that would be massive overkill even for higher levels of NAQT play...

2010 ICT round 8 wrote:This revolt began with the beheading of Robert Bathurst at Hutchenson's Store and was timed to begin before the Security Act came into effect forcing every white man to carry a gun to church on Sunday. Thomas Rose's slaves hid him but were forced to join the men led by a native of the Kongo Empire, Jemmy. Before they could reach (*) Spanish Florida they were defeated at the Edisto River. That event ended--for 10 points--what 1739 slave revolt in South Carolina?
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Down and out in Quintana Roo » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:18 am

bt_green_warbler wrote:
2010 ICT round 8 wrote:This revolt began with the beheading of Robert Bathurst at Hutchenson's Store and was timed to begin before the Security Act came into effect forcing every white man to carry a gun to church on Sunday. Thomas Rose's slaves hid him but were forced to join the men led by a native of the Kongo Empire, Jemmy. Before they could reach (*) Spanish Florida they were defeated at the Edisto River. That event ended--for 10 points--what 1739 slave revolt in South Carolina?

That's a pretty good Stono question. Not to get too far off track, but now that i think of it, would "Cato's Rebellion" have been accepted (that "named" guy i finally thought of) as well?
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby theMoMA » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:27 am

A team in my room guessed the Stono Rebellion at the end.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby TheKingInYellow » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:37 am

Having just taken AP US, I can say that both in class, in textbooks, and in review books, the Stono rebellion was mentioned several times individually, whereas Vesey (if he was mentioned, I can't recall) must have just been in a list of slave revolts. I'm not inferring anything, I just thought that was interesting based on what I've been hearing.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:46 am

Carangoides ciliarius wrote:Not to get too far off track, but now that i think of it, would "Cato's Rebellion" have been accepted (that "named" guy i finally thought of) as well?


Sure, absolutely.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Mechanical Beasts » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:14 am

Carangoides ciliarius wrote:Since HSNCT apparently asks about really hard crap

I'm not saying that this is always false (there's been a Shivaji tossup at HSNCT before, in '08) but is this a valid generalization? I'd rather see tossup conversion be higher too, but this year's set was hardly bad in that respect.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Down and out in Quintana Roo » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:32 am

Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:
Carangoides ciliarius wrote:Since HSNCT apparently asks about really hard crap

I'm not saying that this is always false (there's been a Shivaji tossup at HSNCT before, in '08) but is this a valid generalization? I'd rather see tossup conversion be higher too, but this year's set was hardly bad in that respect.

I know, it's probably not that valid, and i do think NAQT did the best job this year than any year i've kept track of, but there's still room for improvement.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Nick » Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:00 am

I (and perhaps others) was introduced to gullah by my childhood friend Binyah Binyah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gullah_Gullah_Island
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat » Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:57 am

Were any of those non-powered tossups in rounds where the top teams all had byes? I don't remember how byes in the card system work. If all the 3-0 teams had byes in the same round, for example, there would be a lot fewer teams likely to power something.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Yellow-throated Honeyeater » Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:25 pm

The byes were set up this year so that there were not huge discrepancies in the quality of teams playing a given round on Saturday.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby The King's Flight to the Scots » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:03 pm

Were similar stats kept for bonuses? As in, do you know which bonus parts were converted least?
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:13 pm

Cernel Joson wrote:Were similar stats kept for bonuses?


Yes, but we're not quite done tallying those.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Tanay » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:22 pm

How were conversion stats for the "spelling bee" common link TU?
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:02 pm

13/54/3 in 67 rooms.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Ondes Martenot » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:04 pm

the spelling bee tossup went 13/54/3 in 67 rooms
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby BRizzle » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:52 pm

For the Vesey question, could the mention of Haiti maybe be the culprit?
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Alpha Phi Gamma » Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:52 pm

I think the Denmark Vesey tossup was spot-on. It's just that people aren't used to it coming up in quizbowl especially when there are a lot of other rebellions that are more asked about.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Inkana7 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:08 am

I wasn't a fan of that Paris Sewers question. I reflex buzzed with "Paris" at the Haussman clue, and I'd guess that no one even bussed until the Les Miserables clues, as those early clues are extremely obscure, even for this level.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Masked Canadian History Bandit » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:49 pm

What were the stats for the "Lake Winnipeg" tossup? As a Canadian, I powered it, but seeing the stats would be interesting.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:34 pm

4/31/17 in 52 rooms.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Duncan Idaho » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:24 am

Inkana7 wrote:I wasn't a fan of that Paris Sewers question. I reflex buzzed with "Paris" at the Haussman clue, and I'd guess that no one even bussed until the Les Miserables clues, as those early clues are extremely obscure, even for this level.

This also happened to me at the UTC mirror at the same point. After being prompted, I said "Les Champs Élysées, since at that point I had nothing better to guess. It was probably an ill-advised buzz, all in all, since Haussman (re)designed a lot of things in Paris. However, I agree that this was probably too hard. Perhaps a better idea (for conversion) might have been a question on "the cellars/catacombs of the Paris Opera House" from The Phantom of the Opera.

Also, I think Denmark Vesey is ask-able at a national tournament, since those are designed to differentiate between the nation's top teams. However, I think it could have been written better. It seems like it could have benefited from a clue that I've heard a few times (and learned in class, courtesy of the SC Dept. of Education): that he purchased his freedom after winning $1500 in a lottery. Perhaps this isn't as well known as I think, but I've heard it come up, and it was always the point in those sets where I buzzed; and perhaps this is just my taste, but it stands out to me as a rather unique and interesting clue.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Alpha Phi Gamma » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:00 am

I think using a stock clue x for every tossup y is usually a bad idea.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Alpha Phi Gamma » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:00 am

Also, it doesn't really describe what he did or tried to do. It's just an interesting quirk in his life.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Duncan Idaho » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:41 pm

Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:I think using a stock clue x for every tossup y is usually a bad idea.

This is true.

With regard to its usefulness as a clue, I've read that his purchase of his freedom is part of what allowed him to plot the revolt in the first place, so it supposedly has some historical significance. Alternatively, I haven't heard that as a clue in a while, so it's possible I heard it in a poorly written question before I knew about good quizbowl.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Matthew Jackson » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:45 pm

Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:I think using a stock clue x for every tossup y is usually a bad idea.


Clues aren't "stock" just because they get reused.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Alpha Phi Gamma » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:17 pm

RyuAqua wrote:
Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:I think using a stock clue x for every tossup y is usually a bad idea.


Clues aren't "stock" just because they get reused.


They become stock when they're used in every tossup y as he alluded to in a previous post.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Duncan Idaho » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:38 pm

Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:They become stock when they're used in every tossup y as he alluded to in a previous post.

The clue isn't necessarily stock. What I meant was that when that I came up as a clue, I buzzed, not that it always came up, which is your stated criterion of a stock clue. Also, it is relevant to his revolt, which makes it, if not a good clue, at least not stock, in my opinion.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Alpha Phi Gamma » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:13 pm

Ben Cole wrote:
Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:They become stock when they're used in every tossup y as he alluded to in a previous post.

The clue isn't necessarily stock. What I meant was that when that I came up as a clue, I buzzed, not that it always came up, which is your stated criterion of a stock clue. Also, it is relevant to his revolt, which makes it, if not a good clue, at least not stock, in my opinion.


Oh whoops. Just re-read that initial post. Well, I guess it doesn't make it stock. I personally don't think it's a necessary fact about him, but I guess all this really depends on how strict or loose one's idea of relevancy is. I guess it's important that Rosa Parks boarded the bus at Cleveland Avenue, but then again Cleveland Avenue has no real significance in that event other than being stepped on.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Madagascar Serpent Eagle » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:20 pm

Something like boarding the bus at Cleveland Avenue seems awfully close to trivia to me. A better early clue might involve mentioning Claudette Colvin, but that might be too well-known to come up right away.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Alpha Phi Gamma » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:37 pm

Joe N wrote:Something like boarding the bus at Cleveland Avenue seems awfully close to trivia to me.


Well, that's what I'm saying. The line between trivia and academia can get pretty hazy at times, and I guess it depends on the writer to draw that distinction. Is the fact that Denmark Vesey won his freedom from the lottery trivia or is it academia? Is the street where Rosa Parks boarded the bus trivia or academia?

Also, Jeff, do you have the power percentages by categories?
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:57 pm

Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:Also, Jeff, do you have the power percentages by categories?


Sure.

current events 14.7
fine arts 16.8
geography 10.3
general knowledge 11.7
history 12.8
literature 17.8
foreign language 20.1
mixed 17.4
pop culture 27.5
philosophy 8.1
science 14.8
sports 28.8
social science 14.5
theology 16.0
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby 40 characters in search of a username » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:38 am

Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:Is the fact that Denmark Vesey won his freedom from the lottery trivia or is it academia?

Academia.
Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:Is the street where Rosa Parks boarded the bus trivia or academia?

Trivia.

To expand a little, Cleveland Avenue is near meaningless in a historical context; I don't necessarily mean the street itself, but its name is of little or no importance. Meanwhile, what makes the fact that Vesey won his freedom via lottery more than just a useless fact is that it set the stage for something of historical importance, Vesey's rebellion. In short, Cleveland Avenue is a name. Vesey winning his freedom is an event.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:22 pm

RIP actual discussion of stock clues.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08; University of Missouri '12
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby themanwho » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:06 am

NoWayItsTanay wrote:How were conversion stats for the "spelling bee" common link TU?


I'd be interested in seeing this tossup.

-M
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby Alpha Phi Gamma » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:48 pm

bt_green_warbler wrote:
Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:Also, Jeff, do you have the power percentages by categories?


Sure.

current events 14.7
fine arts 16.8
geography 10.3
general knowledge 11.7
history 12.8
literature 17.8
foreign language 20.1
mixed 17.4
pop culture 27.5
philosophy 8.1
science 14.8
sports 28.8
social science 14.5
theology 16.0


I just looked back on this. Do you have further subdivisions? I'm particularly interested in math.
Kay, Chicago.
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Re: 2010 HSNCT conversion stats discussion

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:19 am

Math tossups were powered at a 16.2% rate.
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President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communications and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

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