Suggested circuit events for a new team

[MicroEStudent]

I am in the process of starting a club at RIT after it being a CBI-only school and the fact that student government wouldn't give us the money to go to last year's SCT and forming a club would allow us to receive money.

I have received questions back from the club staff about a tenative schedule of tournaments we would be planning on going to as there are various rules and regulations regarding travel while representing RIT. My question is what events would be a good fit for a team inexperienced in "good quizbowl"in both the fall and spring? Having read some of the announcements, I think that EFT would be a good fit for us and we plan on attending the 2010 SCT.

In terms of team experience, all upperclassmen that were not part of the SCT team would likely only be familiar with CBI as that was unfortunately the only game in town due to the ACUI partnership. CBI was also the question provider of choice for Upstate New York high schools--which provide 50% of RIT students--until last year when they were forced to switch to NAQT.

The restrictions we are under with regards to travel are:

Tournaments must be within 400 miles of RIT (Boston, Providence and Philadelphia are all just within this distance)
We cannot go into Canada due to "insurance" according to RIT.
We cannot plan on travel on a weekend before finals (11/14, 2/20, 5/15)

I appreciate your suggestions.

[dtaylor4]

Tournaments to look into:

ACF Fall (Halloween)
MUT (usually early March)
SCT

[Habitat_Against_Humanity]

ACF typically provides significant discounts to new teams as per http://acf-quizbowl.com/documents/packetsub.php#fees. ACF Fall 2005 was my first collegiate tournament experience after playing lousy questions in high school. I didn't do all that well ppg-wise, but it made want to learn more. Also, I think that for the past two years, EFT has been a great tournament to introduce people to good college quizbowl without being extraordinarily difficult.

[Horned Screamer]

All the events listed above are very good things for new players, no doubt. However, I don't think that any club, no matter how new, should be restricting themselves to novice level questions. As long as you have the money, I would recommend going to the events like Penn Bowl, ACF Winter and Regionals, T-Party, etc. that are more towards the "regular" end of difficulty, and if you really want to improve, go to some hard stuff too like Nationals. Nobody that matters will judge your team if you do poorly at these events, and I think there are lots of ways to enjoy them without doing well that could benefit your team. I think a true defining feature of a functioning quizbowl club is going to as many events that you can get to as possible, no matter how good you are, and the more your club expects to go to plenty of events, the more likely it will be that they get better and more motivated.
Also, looking at the map, you should be able to get to Ann Arbor and Pittsburgh, which are both places that run a decent number of tournaments as well.

[MicroEStudent]

Tournaments to look into:

ACF Fall (Halloween)
MUT (usually early March)
SCT

MUT is something we will have to consider, if there is a mirror close enough to us.

ACF typically provides significant discounts to new teams as per http://acf-quizbowl.com/documents/packetsub.php#fees. ACF Fall 2005 was my first collegiate tournament experience after playing lousy questions in high school. I didn't do all that well ppg-wise, but it made want to learn more. Also, I think that for the past two years, EFT has been a great tournament to introduce people to good college quizbowl without being extraordinarily difficult.

We are looking at ACF Fall as well, but the 10/31 date is a bit problematic for us. It wouldn't be out of the question, but it would have to be a site that we could drive to on Saturday morning.

All the events listed above are very good things for new players, no doubt. However, I don't think that any club, no matter how new, should be restricting themselves to novice level questions. As long as you have the money, I would recommend going to the events like Penn Bowl, ACF Winter and Regionals, T-Party, etc. that are more towards the "regular" end of difficulty, and if you really want to improve, go to some hard stuff too like Nationals. Nobody that matters will judge your team if you do poorly at these events, and I think there are lots of ways to enjoy them without doing well that could benefit your team. I think a true defining feature of a functioning quizbowl club is going to as many events that you can get to as possible, no matter how good you are, and the more your club expects to go to plenty of events, the more likely it will be that they get better and more motivated.
Also, looking at the map, you should be able to get to Ann Arbor and Pittsburgh, which are both places that run a decent number of tournaments as well.

I'm not trying to limit the team to novice-only events, but I think it would be a good idea to start with those as no one has gone to an ACF-style tournament before. Penn Bowl looks doable for us in terms of the time frame and I will throw out the idea of ACF Winter/Regionals/Nationals, provided it is within our travel restrictions.

We are on a bit of a geographic island when it comes to quizbowl, so that is also a limiting factor. Events held in Pittsburgh look like they would be the closest for us. Ann Arbor may be possible, but it is more than 400 miles if we don't cut across Southern Ontario.

Thank you all for your comments thus far.

[Ethnic history of the Vilnius region]

Yeah, good luck with everything. Going to as many events as possible is key. It's hard to get motivated to improve if you aren't competing.

The travel restriction thing sucks. Sometimes with these college administrator types, it helps to just bug them until they change policies. It's not like other American schools never go into Canada or vice versa, so just get on their case if the policy turns out to deprive you all of a substantial number of tournament opportunities. One thing is for sure: they won't change the policies unless you ask them to.

Another thing to consider is to just go to tournaments on an unofficial basis. It's obviously better to be able to spend someone else's money, but tournaments are usually not terribly expensive, so if you split the cost among 4 people it shouldn't be prohibitive. Unless the school has a general policy about students traveling to Canada, I doubt they would punish a group of students going on a weekend road trip that happens to involve a quizbowl event.

[Mechanical Beasts]

tournaments are usually not terribly expensive, so if you split the cost among 4 people it shouldn't be prohibitive.

Most tournaments are also pretty good about having official or negotiated discounts for new teams and teams paying out of pocket.

[grapesmoker]

Is your travel restriction due to the fact that RIT hooks you up with transport? Because otherwise, how is it any of their business what you do on your weekends?

[MicroEStudent]

Yeah, good luck with everything. Going to as many events as possible is key. It's hard to get motivated to improve if you aren't competing.

The travel restriction thing sucks. Sometimes with these college administrator types, it helps to just bug them until they change policies. It's not like other American schools never go into Canada or vice versa, so just get on their case if the policy turns out to deprive you all of a substantial number of tournament opportunities. One thing is for sure: they won't change the policies unless you ask them to.

Another thing to consider is to just go to tournaments on an unofficial basis. It's obviously better to be able to spend someone else's money, but tournaments are usually not terribly expensive, so if you split the cost among 4 people it shouldn't be prohibitive. Unless the school has a general policy about students traveling to Canada, I doubt they would punish a group of students going on a weekend road trip that happens to involve a quizbowl event.

RIT was quite unhappy that we "represented" them at SCT because of "insurance concerns". I have requested a meeting with them about the travel restrictions. RIT's policy is that if a sanctioned club is traveling, they must take one of the student government vans if less than 12 people are traveling. The policy on the vans is that they may not go more than 400 miles away from RIT, nor into Canada because of the "insurance concerns" as they put it.

We of course could go to tournaments on our own dime, but that idea has been met with reluctance from the new recruits even though I put forth the evidence that we were able to do SCT in Pittsburgh for $250/4 people and could have done it cheaper if we went back to RIT on Saturday instead of staying over.

tournaments are usually not terribly expensive, so if you split the cost among 4 people it shouldn't be prohibitive.

Most tournaments are also pretty good about having official or negotiated discounts for new teams and teams paying out of pocket.

That would be an incentive for us if we need to pay out of pocket.

Is your travel restriction due to the fact that RIT hooks you up with transport? Because otherwise, how is it any of their business what you do on your weekends?

Exactly. If we want the RIT money, we are subject to their restrictions involving the van as seen above. If we pay by ourselves, we shouldn't have a problem going anywhere, provided that my teammates have appropriate ID to go to Canada if necessary. RIT does not want to be represented by us if we don't follow all of the rules, but I suppose that for events that are not NAQT/ACF we would not necessarily be representing RIT and if people are willing to spend the money to travel out of pocket, we would not have a problem.

[Horned Screamer]

I'm really baffled as to what possible insurance concerns there could be? If a group of people in a club decide to drive on their own time to a tournament, if something goes wrong it's clearly their fault. You should really point out to them that as recently as 2006 or so, Rochester University routinely traveled beyond the 400 mile mark, and traveled through Canada, and was able to use their experience doing that to become a team that placed third at nationals in 2005. See if maybe yelling at them about how their policies will prevent you from ever succeeding the way Rochester did might break them down. They are so hilariously in the wrong about this policy, since it is how almost every other school in America operates.

[MicroEStudent]

I'm really baffled as to what possible insurance concerns there could be? If a group of people in a club decide to drive on their own time to a tournament, if something goes wrong it's clearly their fault. You should really point out to them that as recently as 2006 or so, Rochester University routinely traveled beyond the 400 mile mark, and traveled through Canada, and was able to use their experience doing that to become a team that placed third at nationals in 2005. See if maybe yelling at them about how their policies will prevent you from ever succeeding the way Rochester did might break them down. They are so hilariously in the wrong about this policy, since it is how almost every other school in America operates.

I believe the insurance relates to the vehicle itself, not to the members of the team. Also, if we are to use their money for travel to an event, we would beholden to their rules.

I agree that if we were to travel ourselves, as we did with the 2009 SCT, we would be 100% responsible for what happened. We may have to go down this route, pay out of pocket and just not inform RIT that we are going.

I will point out what U of R has done in the past at my meeting with the administration when classes start up again in September, including a citation that U of R went to Canada for SCT this past year. Hopefully this is just a problem of the bureaucracy of RIT and something can be worked out and that the administrators were just used to rubber stamping the yearly CBI regionals trip and this is something different than they are used to.

[Horned Screamer]

Yeah, but it sounds like they didn't really like you going to Sectionals and playing under your school's name even though you did it out of pocket, is that true? Also, is there lots of money that they are throwing at you for this? Something you might try is going to all the stuff under the auspices of the club that is in their rules and using that money, then paying out of pocket for stuff further away.

[MicroEStudent]

Yeah, but it sounds like they didn't really like you going to Sectionals and playing under your school's name even though you did it out of pocket, is that true? Also, is there lots of money that they are throwing at you for this? Something you might try is going to all the stuff under the auspices of the club that is in their rules and using that money, then paying out of pocket for stuff further away.

That's pretty accurate. We may just have to do everything by the book for NAQT/ACF, but for everything else just do it on our own. It would increase our range a bit, but it may hurt the frequency that we can attend tournaments.

Right now I'm thinking as a start:

EFT
ACF Fall, provided a close enough site
Penn Bowl
SCT
Some March/April Open Tournament

and considering some of the New England tournaments as well and if there is enough interest from the team to go to an ACF Winter/Regionals. ACF Nationals would likely be a bit ambitious for the first year, but it would be a goal to attend in 2011.

[Broad-tailed Grassbird]

RIT was quite unhappy that we "represented" them at SCT because of "insurance concerns". I have requested a meeting with them about the travel restrictions. RIT's policy is that if a sanctioned club is traveling, they must take one of the student government vans if less than 12 people are traveling. The policy on the vans is that they may not go more than 400 miles away from RIT, nor into Canada because of the "insurance concerns" as they put it.

Quiz bowl should be kept in the same grouping as a club sport. Do club sports have to use these vans? As others have said, if you push through the bs enough, you'll get through these stupid rules.

[MicroEStudent]

Quiz bowl should be kept in the same grouping as a club sport. Do club sports have to use these vans? As others have said, if you push through the bs enough, you'll get through these stupid rules.

RIT's definition of a club sport:

"[a club] where the primary purpose of membership is to partake in or educate members
about a sport or physical activity."

I don't think pressing buzzers counts as "physical activity".

Regarding travel:

"Different options or Van rentals:
Van through SG (free)
Vans through Campus Safety
Vans through rental company with discussion of insurance
Note that as of September 2008, clubs may not take vehicles into Canada unless accompanied by a full time staff member of the Center for Campus Life. Any expenses for the staff member will be deducted from the club's budget. Additionally, the maximum distance a club may go in an RIT van is 800 miles round trip unless it is an MSO [Major Student Organization, i.e. the magazine, radio station or any club with over 100 members] and only if approved by the Director of Campus Life or their designee. "

Warning: Travel in participants’ cars is discouraged and is not covered by RIT insurance
policies. The driver’s/owner’s personal insurance is considered the primary carrier when
students choose to travel in their own cars. Students that travel on their own representing an RIT club may not use RIT funds for gas, hotels, meals or any other expenses except for any registration or participation fees."

I have no idea why RIT has such a thing for insurance.

I have a meeting with them during the first week of classes and hopefully things will become far less bureaucratic. The paperwork for a new club is 118 pages, but only about 20 would apply to us. I'd link the abomination, but the current version is only accessible with an RIT account.

I was able to find out that the 800 mile distance came about because a couple of clubs wanted to go to Boston which was outside the previous 600 mile round trip mark, so there is hope that their policies can be changed.

[Charbroil]

Students that travel on their own representing an RIT club may not use RIT funds for gas, hotels, meals or any other expenses except for any registration or participation fees."

So can't you just pay for tournament registration using school funds and drive yourselves wherever you want? Or is the major point of concern regarding costs gas, hotels, meals, etc.?

For that matter, do most teams charge their incidental expenses (like those) to their club budgets? I always thought people had to pay for them on their own.

[MicroEStudent]

Students that travel on their own representing an RIT club may not use RIT funds for gas, hotels, meals or any other expenses except for any registration or participation fees."

So can't you just pay for tournament registration using school funds and drive yourselves wherever you want? Or is the major point of concern regarding costs gas, hotels, meals, etc.?

For that matter, do most teams charge their incidental expenses (like those) to their club budgets? I always thought people had to pay for them on their own.

Most of the potential members do not want to spend the money to attend tournaments on a frequent basis. Unless there was a tournament in Hamilton, ON, we would probably have to stay at least one night in a hotel. Pittsburgh may be a stretch for that as it took us about 4 hours to get there and anything in New England would probably require two nights in a hotel. The other people are not willing to spend the money for more than 1, possibly 2 tournaments a year if it wasn't subsidized by RIT. Besides University of Rochester, we are pretty much on a geographical island for quizbowl.

The other issue is that RIT does not like being represented unless we are a proper club. That was made clear to me when we attended SCT last year. This would not be an issue for circuit events, but it is something we have to deal with when it comes to NAQT/ACF.

Again, I hope that my meeting with them in September will help with the travel restrictions or just the representation. If I can get them to allow us to represent RIT without being a club, that would be enough and we'll find a way to get the money to go to tournaments.

[dtaylor4]

Students that travel on their own representing an RIT club may not use RIT funds for gas, hotels, meals or any other expenses except for any registration or participation fees."

So can't you just pay for tournament registration using school funds and drive yourselves wherever you want? Or is the major point of concern regarding costs gas, hotels, meals, etc.?

For that matter, do most teams charge their incidental expenses (like those) to their club budgets? I always thought people had to pay for them on their own.

Depends on the team, as various schools have different set-ups. Here, we're allowed to apply for school funding for x number of trips per year, and by doing so get most stuff compensated (up to $200 for plane tickets, 75% of hotels, etc.)

[Camelopardalis]

Most of the potential members do not want to spend the money to attend tournaments on a frequent basis. Unless there was a tournament in Hamilton, ON, we would probably have to stay at least one night in a hotel. Pittsburgh may be a stretch for that as it took us about 4 hours to get there and anything in New England would probably require two nights in a hotel. The other people are not willing to spend the money for more than 1, possibly 2 tournaments a year if it wasn't subsidized by RIT. Besides University of Rochester, we are pretty much on a geographical island for quizbowl.

If you are able to venture north, there should be several tournaments in Ontario within driving distance that would not require a hotel stay. It might be worth contacting the University of Rochester program, since they are essentially part of the Ontario circuit, and southern Ontario is a much shorter trip than, say, Pittsburgh or New England. Last year, they competed at SCT at Laurier, TRASH Regionals at Toronto, and the Guelph Hybrid Mirror at Guelph, and, I believe, did not have to stay at a hotel any time. In past years, I know that they've also competed at McGill (Montreal) and Ottawa (Ottawa).

Here are the driving times to each of the six southwestern Ontario universities with active programs (city in parentheses):
RIT - McMaster (Hamilton): 2h33m
RIT - Waterloo (Waterloo): 3h18m
RIT - Laurier (Waterloo): 3h16m
RIT - Guelph (Guelph): 3h3m
RIT - Toronto (Toronto): 3h0m
RIT - Western (London): 3h55m
[Google Maps]

If you can get permission from your clubs council, this might be the most prudent option for traveling to tournaments. It would be great to see you at some Canadian events this season.

[cvdwightw]

Most of the potential members do not want to spend the money to attend tournaments on a frequent basis. Unless there was a tournament in Hamilton, ON, we would probably have to stay at least one night in a hotel. Pittsburgh may be a stretch for that as it took us about 4 hours to get there and anything in New England would probably require two nights in a hotel. The other people are not willing to spend the money for more than 1, possibly 2 tournaments a year if it wasn't subsidized by RIT. Besides University of Rochester, we are pretty much on a geographical island for quizbowl.

6-7 hour drives one way are par for the course for SoCal teams heading back from NorCal and NorCal teams heading back from SoCal, and we regularly do this the night after the tournament (tournament finishes by 7, head back, be back around 2-2:30 AM). I hear distances in the Southwest circuit are even longer and have been covered the night after the tournament. Also, I hear the Northeast circuit has to end a lot of tournaments by 6-something because a lot of teams are dependent on public transportation that stops running at a specific time. An LA to Berkeley trip is roughly equivalent in distance to a Rochester to Boston trip, and LA to Irvine is another ~40 miles. I have done a Berkeley -> Irvine trip the night after the tournament, so I have every confidence that you can pull off a similar Boston -> Rochester feat.

[MicroEStudent]

If you are able to venture north, there should be several tournaments in Ontario within driving distance that would not require a hotel stay. It might be worth contacting the University of Rochester program, since they are essentially part of the Ontario circuit, and southern Ontario is a much shorter trip than, say, Pittsburgh or New England. Last year, they competed at SCT at Laurier, TRASH Regionals at Toronto, and the Guelph Hybrid Mirror at Guelph, and, I believe, did not have to stay at a hotel any time. In past years, I know that they've also competed at McGill (Montreal) and Ottawa (Ottawa).

Here are the driving times to each of the six southwestern Ontario universities with active programs (city in parentheses):
RIT - McMaster (Hamilton): 2h33m
RIT - Waterloo (Waterloo): 3h18m
RIT - Laurier (Waterloo): 3h16m
RIT - Guelph (Guelph): 3h3m
RIT - Toronto (Toronto): 3h0m
RIT - Western (London): 3h55m
[Google Maps]

If you can get permission from your clubs council, this might be the most prudent option for traveling to tournaments. It would be great to see you at some Canadian events this season.

It is definitely a consideration. I will bring it up with the administration and my teammates.

6-7 hour drives one way are par for the course for SoCal teams heading back from NorCal and NorCal teams heading back from SoCal, and we regularly do this the night after the tournament (tournament finishes by 7, head back, be back around 2-2:30 AM). I hear distances in the Southwest circuit are even longer and have been covered the night after the tournament. Also, I hear the Northeast circuit has to end a lot of tournaments by 6-something because a lot of teams are dependent on public transportation that stops running at a specific time. An LA to Berkeley trip is roughly equivalent in distance to a Rochester to Boston trip, and LA to Irvine is another ~40 miles. I have done a Berkeley -> Irvine trip the night after the tournament, so I have every confidence that you can pull off a similar Boston -> Rochester feat.

That would be another thing to consider. I hadn't brought that up directly with my teammates.

[OntarioQuizzer]

If a response of "We won't be able to play our cross-town rivals unless we're allowed to travel to Canada" doesn't work, I don't know what will. :-)

U of R is allowed to travel to Canada. They do all the time. They're a valued part of our circuit up here, in fact.

[MicroEStudent]

I received this e-mail today about the issues we've been having:

"I apologize for not being able to meet with you tomorrow, but hopefully this will be a temporary solution.

Your pending club is the first that would be making such frequent trips to a foreign country. While other clubs such as [redacted for space] have gone to other countries, it is usually only once a year. To this point, we will discuss our auto insurance policy with our vendor to determine a solution for Canadian trips. For the 2009-2010 school year, this policy is unlikely to change, but we would hope to implement it for next year.

For the time until your preliminary probation status is removed and you do not receive any funding, we will allow you to use the RIT name in competitions that you attend with your own funds. This is subject to the following:

Prior to any Canadian trip, the clubs office must be notified as to who is going on the trip and what date(s) the trip is on.
Any insurance costs for vehicles will be paid by the members of the team.
If there is a student under the age of majority in Canada, you or your designee is responsible for them.
You must follow the RIT Honor Code.
Any funds you receive from RIT in the future may not be used to purchase alcohol or tobacco and cannot be used for gambling purposes.

I hope that this solution is amenable for the near future. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Regards,

[Dean of Student Services]"

I think it is a fair solution. Now, the challenge is getting more people willing to go up to Canada at the frequency that I would like.

[grapesmoker]

So does this mean that once you receive funding, you will not be able to represent yourselves as an RIT team? If you do receive funding, how are you supposed to represent yourself then? Also, does this mean you guys will be attending the Toronto EFT site rather than the Providence one? That would make sense to me in terms of driving distance.

[MicroEStudent]

So does this mean that once you receive funding, you will not be able to represent yourselves as an RIT team? If you do receive funding, how are you supposed to represent yourself then? Also, does this mean you guys will be attending the Toronto EFT site rather than the Providence one? That would make sense to me in terms of driving distance.

When we receive funding we will still be able to represent ourselves as "RIT". Their issue was us going without RIT money, something happening and because we were "representatives" of RIT that they would be liable in some way. I have heard off the record from the club staff that there was an incident a couple years ago where an unsanctioned group of people were claiming to represent RIT. They billed everything to the Institute and because of that, you need to be official (and you are not official until you go through the probationary period) in order to be a representative. This e-mail overrides that until our probationary period expires. This type of bureaucracy and vague definition of rules is quite prevalent at RIT.

Yes, we will be attending the Toronto EFT mirror and hope to make the TIT/IO mirror in Guelph. Unfortunately, we can't attend ACF Fall this year due to member schedules.

I may be part of an amalgam RIT/UB/Open team for Penn Bowl and as of now we plan on sending a DI and DII team to SCT. Other tournaments are also being considered.