Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Old college threads.

Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:29 pm

Fuck Andy Watkins.

Moved from the high school section to collegiate discussion for language reasons. --Mgmt.

Post here if you have similar sentiments about the recent revelations and no coherent way to work them into a constructive post in the security discussion.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Dr. Loki Skylizard, Thoracic Surgeon » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:41 pm

He's pretty awful.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby The Quest for the Historical Mukherjesus » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:47 pm

I'm very disappointed.

I knew that something was amiss when you could get first-line buzzes on ridiculous clues I've never heard of (Victor Tausk for schizophrenia...despite learning about schizophrenia literally one month before in a medical school class I'd never heard of this person). My suspicions were furthered after looking at the stats; approximately the same number of powers as Seth Teitler and me? Even though you've never posted stats like that before? Or even a few weeks later? And looking back, I can see so many questions that you clearly punted to me in those games. Now one of the best tournament performances I've ever had is tainted because of you.

I wanted to bring my suspicions to NAQT. I should have. But my animosity towards you was well-known, and I thought it'd just look like sour grapes, so I didn't. I respected you enough to give you the benefit of the doubt, even when you directly explained to me that you just "got lucky". I'm saddened to say my respect was misplaced.

I'm mostly not even mad because of the actual cheating in games against me, but because of what you did to my friends. You took away a title from one of my current teammates and several of my friends who had the misfortune to have to share a team with you for those tournaments, and who clearly worked very hard to earn the points that they got. At least two of my very good quizbowl friends are, at the very least, none too happy because of what you did to them. If one of my teammates dishonored my team's titles like you did, I wouldn't be nearly as calm as they are.
Last edited by The Quest for the Historical Mukherjesus on Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Auroni » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:49 pm

Yeah he's without a doubt the worst person I have ever had to work with for anything.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Mewto55555 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:09 pm

I don't really know Watkins or Brosch or Putzig or Alman, but man, cheating sure isn't cool at all! Way to ruin things for everyone else, guys!

EDIT: Also everyone else news of whose cheating broke a long time ago: you're terrible people too!
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby grapesmoker » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:26 pm

Compared to the people who actually got screwed in game-related situations by this scandal, I wasn't really affected personally all that much. Except in this way: both people at the center of recent cheating scandals were my co-editors for CO 2010. I even defended Shantanu at one point over allegations regarding his shitty work ethic by pointing out that he had done what he said he'd do for CO. Obviously, I now deeply regret doing this. I haven't lost anything, but I feel kind of dirty nonetheless. I trusted these people to work on a project with me, and took them at their word. Now it appears that those words meant nothing; I can't help but feel as though my trust was abused.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby 40 characters in search of a username » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:30 pm

I hope Watkins et al sure enjoyed those monetary prizes they got for winning those tournaments! What? They didn't get any? Why would anybody cheat, then?
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby NickConderWKU » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:32 pm

Joe Brosch is apparently awful at cheating.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby grapesmoker » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:33 pm

Courvoisier Winetavius Richardson wrote:I hope Watkins et al sure enjoyed those monetary prizes they got for winning those tournaments! What? They didn't get any? Why would anybody cheat, then?


You laugh, but I am aware of instances of people cheating on practice questions by looking at the packets beforehand.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Kouign Amann » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:44 pm

Sulawesi Myzomela wrote:Joe Brosch is apparently awful

ftfy
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Frater Taciturnus » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:51 pm

Andy,

I, like so many of the other posters, both in this thread and the others, paid large sums of money from either our personal, team, or student activities accounts to play you, in "good faith," at a tournament you had secretly rigged in your favor. We run four or more high school tournaments a year to ensure that we have the money to go to ICT. I, my teammates, and 30 other teams worked to make sure we could afford to go to a tournament that we secretly had no hope of ever winning. You deceived thirty one teams into being part of the first, and later second, ANDY WATKINS IS THE BEST FEST. In an ideal world, every team you beat from 2009-11 at ICT would send you a bill for the fraction of their ICT they spent playing you. 2011 I figured out by the end of the day. 2010 I figured was at least plausible if not iffy. Your performance in 2009 did not victimize me personally, just left me almost as surprised as when I found out that Joe Brosch had cheated at HSNCT.

Your apology, if we can even call it that was the worst apology I have ever read. One of Fred's friends compared it to mark Sanford after his disappearance into the Appalachian trail. I know you don't actually regret anything that you did, but couldn't you at least put on that Crazy Andy grin, and lie to us all one more time?

Finally, now that it all has come clean, you are going to make Eric so angry he becomes a Red Lantern. Don't make Eric become a Red Lantern.

EDIT: Oh hey apparently in 2010 we missed the top bracket because we were at 5-2 with losses to Illinois and...you. God-fucking-damnit.
Last edited by Frater Taciturnus on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Weighted Companion Cube » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:55 pm

I'm surprised that I haven't seen any bad jokes about Andy having attended Shady Side High School.
Last edited by Weighted Companion Cube on Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Frater Taciturnus » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:59 pm

Weighted Companion Cube wrote:I'm surprised that I haven't seen any bad jokes about Andy having attended Shady Side High School


I think it was Matt who coined "shadysidefreude" yesterday in the chat.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby grapesmoker » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:08 pm

Weighted Companion Cube wrote:I'm surprised that I haven't seen any bad jokes about Andy having attended Shady Side High School.


Shadyside (the neighborhood, anyway) is actually quite pleasant and doesn't deserve to be tainted by association with Andy.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Bartleby » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:29 pm

This may not be specifically directed at any one cheater, but the greatest quiz bowl match I've ever seen was the 2011 ICT finals between Minnesota and Harvard. That ICT, generally, is one of my fondest memories of my time playing quiz bowl, and it is assuredly the only ICT for which I'll qualify. To imagine that such a spectacular match was tainted by one player's knowledge of the questions in advance makes me very angry.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Muriel Axon » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:34 pm

Joe Brosch, I should have known you were a lying, cheating scumbag the moment you bailed on our housewrite, leaving your teammates and MSU in the lurch.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Ravi » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:48 pm

http://imgur.com/x09EWll . Though in all honesty, this does not come as a surprise to those of us at Charter who had the misfortune of having to be on the same team as him. He always seemed to think he was much better than he actually was. Now we know why.

Idea Credit to Varun Wadwha
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:00 am

Here's all you need to know about Joe Brosch:
Last year when he was at HSNCT he decided it was cool to get drunk playing a Dragon Ball Z tournament, then go to an afterparty where he bragged to a bunch of quizbowlers about how he "fucks bitches," which is exactly what you'd expect a college freshman with a bad goatee to do.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:03 am

Also Joe you're a huge fucking pussy for deleting those facebook posts that made you look really stupid when you complained about other people cheating and I called you on it. What a fucking manchild, have fun spending your early 30s with a Bud light in your hand trying to have sex with college girls still.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Kouign Amann » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:04 am

Horned Screamer wrote:Here's all you need to know about Joe Brosch:
Last year when he was at HSNCT he decided it was cool to get drunk playing a Dragon Ball Z tournament, then go to an afterparty where he bragged to a bunch of quizbowlers about how he "fucks bitches," which is exactly what you'd expect a college freshman with a bad goatee to do.

I mean, let's not forget the time he announced a high school tournament called TITTIE and literally could not understand why that might be a bad idea.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Skepticism and Animal Feed » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:15 am

I really liked Shantanu when he started playing college quizbowl. He was colorful, interesting, exactly the type of player I like. And he was doing amazing things for a freshman. At a time when quizbowl was dominated by one of the blandest players to ever pick up a buzzer, Shantanu gave me hope that the highest levels of the game would soon be spiced up. I believed in him; if quizbowl were commercialized like pro sports, I would have purchased a Shantanu jersey. I was always happy to talk to him during tournaments, and I even collaborated with him on a set (RMPFest 2: he completed his full assignment, albeit at the last possible moment, and it was well received by the players)

It's hard to admit that somebody you believe in is not what they appear to be. I went from not believing the allegations, to admitting that he was a troubled eccentric who was otherwise sound, to finally being forced to give up belief. It sucks.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Cheynem » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:38 am

(INCREDIBLY SELF-SERVING POST ALERT)

I'm pissed at 2011. I alluded to this in the other thread, but our 2011 team deserves a lot of credit as one of the best ICT performing teams ever--we (presumably) would have gone undefeated; we would have cleared the field (although apparently still needing to play a final). We'll get some ex post facto kudos and a new trophy and that's it. And that sucks. All of us played so well in that tournament; I still maintain I played some of the best games in my life in the playoffs. While at the time I was disappointed at losing to Harvard, I at least recognized the solid effort we all put in and enjoyed playing quality matches.

Now, I find out we should have won the tournament. I'm never going to win another national tournament again, so a potentially high point in my quizbowl career has been completely erased from history. I don't know if my teammates will ever win another title; they certainly won't do it as an unit. I'm going to sound like a huge dick here, but we should have had a moment to shine; we didn't. I should have been celebrating in 2011 with my teammates. I should not have been depressed and angry. To put it another way, what if you were told you couldn't graduate from high school and thus were not allowed to participate in any of the ceremonies, only to be told two years later it was just a typo and you actually did graduate? Awards fly forever, sure, but those memories and feelings can never be brought back.

I hate Andy Watkins. I'm pissed at NAQT for botching four straight national tournaments that our teams paid money to go and compete (and in one year, I spent over $500 out of pocket to attend). I'm pissed that I never will be able to recapture the moment of success in 2011 that my teammates and I deserved.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Matt Weiner » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:51 am

A lot of the people involved on the various teams that Watkins screwed over will be at ICT this year as players or staffers. The only ones I'm not sure about are Brendan Byrne, Gautam Kandlikar, and Selene Koo, who could presumably be invited for this purpose (sorry Cody). Could NAQT commit to re-awarding the correct trophies to those teams as part of this year's ceremony?
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Ukonvasara » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:03 am

Cheynem wrote:(INCREDIBLY SELF-SERVING POST ALERT)

I'm pissed at 2011. I alluded to this in the other thread, but our 2011 team deserves a lot of credit as one of the best ICT performing teams ever--we (presumably) would have gone undefeated; we would have cleared the field (although apparently still needing to play a final). We'll get some ex post facto kudos and a new trophy and that's it. And that sucks. All of us played so well in that tournament; I still maintain I played some of the best games in my life in the playoffs. While at the time I was disappointed at losing to Harvard, I at least recognized the solid effort we all put in and enjoyed playing quality matches.

Now, I find out we should have won the tournament. I'm never going to win another national tournament again, so a potentially high point in my quizbowl career has been completely erased from history. I don't know if my teammates will ever win another title; they certainly won't do it as an unit. I'm going to sound like a huge dick here, but we should have had a moment to shine; we didn't. I should have been celebrating in 2011 with my teammates. I should not have been depressed and angry. To put it another way, what if you were told you couldn't graduate from high school and thus were not allowed to participate in any of the ceremonies, only to be told two years later it was just a typo and you actually did graduate? Awards fly forever, sure, but those memories and feelings can never be brought back.

I hate Andy Watkins. I'm pissed at NAQT for botching four straight national tournaments that our teams paid money to go and compete (and in one year, I spent over $500 out of pocket to attend). I'm pissed that I never will be able to recapture the moment of success in 2011 that my teammates and I deserved.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments Mike expresses here, and can't really express them better myself. Playing in that 2011 final was one of the most exhilarating moments of my quizbowl career--it's not often you get a whole auditorium applauding you during a timeout--but I was willing to accept it as a hard-fought loss and deal with it. It's very nice to have the victory, now, but it can't help but feel pretty hollow.

Incidentally, Gautam will be staffing ICT.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby The Ununtiable Twine » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:13 am

I cannot believe this, but I don't think I deserve the title Archdemon of Quizbowl. You have taken the title from me, in fact it may never have been mine. Hopefully you enjoyed the excessive trash-talking poofest that you threw at me on the forums for like over or under a year, I didn't really keep track...whoopdyfuckingdoo. My first victory at D1 ICT is now, technically, a victory against you. What a shitty way to win your first D1 nationals match. Never has a victory been sooooo not-so-thrilling. We spent our money at ICT to play in a match that we would not have won anyway, because Dallas was incredible in that game, but hey, thanks for the win! I should have known better when you beat me to TWO math tossups in the same match - like really dude only Harrison can do that. (lol josh alman powering infinitude of primes on me and harrison immediately like seriously that's just as fucking bad but at least you seem to be a nice guy kindasorta but fuck that too i guess)

Oh yeah, and fuck you for screwing over Minnesota, your teammates, Eric, and anyone else whose chances were fucked over by you. I would be a lot angrier, if, say, we had actually won those two matches we lost on the last tossup against Maryland and Toronto because that would have meant we would have been 6-1 and in top bracket that we never would have gotten a chance to play (and we would have lost to you guys anyway let me reiterate but i would have still been like really really pissed), but oh well I guess I'm not that angry then. I guess I'm pissed at you for screwing Chris Ray over then because his win against us would have meant he made the top bracket maybe.

Drink to Minnesota and Chicago and VCU and anyone that I may have forgotten that got screwed out of national titles and top bracket (and hey, even third bracket appearances) beforehand. Also drink to those grand former teammates of one Andrew Martin Watkins, and remember their valiant efforts that were tarnished due to his highness, the Grand Vizier of Fuckfaces, the new Archdemon of Quizbowl.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby jonpin » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:29 am

I'm gonna have to use "Grand Vizier of Fuckfaces" in (impolite) conversation at some point. Also:

Horned Screamer wrote:Also Joe you're a huge fucking pussy for deleting those facebook posts that made you look really stupid when you complained about other people cheating and I called you on it. What a fucking manchild, have fun spending your early 30s with a Bud light in your hand trying to have sex with college girls still.


Man, so many people who jumped on that after me suck so bad at subtlety. Taking a month-old post where a guy who had previously cheated at quizbowl says "You shouldn't cheat at quizbowl" and commenting "I agree" is, in my self-aggrandizing opinion, hilarious. But if you beat the joke to death like a rented mule, it becomes less funny.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Habitat_Against_Humanity » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:48 am

Skepticism and Animal Feed wrote:I really liked Shantanu when he started playing college quizbowl. He was colorful, interesting, exactly the type of player I like. And he was doing amazing things for a freshman.

It's hard to admit that somebody you believe in is not what they appear to be. I went from not believing the allegations, to admitting that he was a troubled eccentric who was otherwise sound, to finally being forced to give up belief. It sucks.


This. This whole thing has me sick to my stomach. I was on the UChicago team with Shantanu for a bit over a year. For the first few months he royally pissed me off as a cocky know it all who had had everything handed to him (this was my perception, I don't know how factual it is, but his style of dress indicated that money wasn't an issue). He told me the first tossup he ever wrote was on the Poincare-Hopf theorem. He was irritating and got on my nerves.

To be completely honest, I think I should have cut him some more slack at this time because he was an 18 year old kid moving hundreds of miles away from home and learning the social ropes of college just like everyone else has to do. To his credit, he curtailed some of his more egotistical tendencies, and by the end of the year my opinion had changed and I considered him a fairly good friend. For all of his intelligence and ego, there were times I wondered about his well-being; his stories about his supposed past experiences were way too outlandish to be entirely true and I wondered why he seemed so driven on presenting the very specific image of himself he cultivated.

I had been out of UChicago for awhile before the accusations arose. Like Bruce said, I couldn't believe them at first, but the more I thought about, the more it seemed like the kind of thing he would do if he decided to do such a thing. I haven't talked to him since the 2010 SCT because he isn't on facebook (or at least hasn't friended me), but while I abhor his quiz bowl actions and probably wouldn't want him as a part of my school's team, I think I'd still consider him a friend.

Despite his numerous, numerous faults, Shantanu always did right by me and features in some of my better memories of the 08-09 year, which I think was the best year at UChicago. Given, I never worked with him on the production of any set other than what I think may have been an ACF Winter or Regionals packet, so I can't speak to that.

Ketan, if you read this, say hello to your brother for me and if he ever decides to succumb to the cultural zeitgeist and join facebook, I'd still be more than happy to talk to him and catch up. I'm more concerned about his well-being than I am angry at his quiz bowl choices.





Now Andy Watkins:
Way to suck in every way, shape, and form dude. Whereas I might be able to somewhat persuade myself that Shantanu did what he did out of some poorly reasoned desire to fit in or feel like part of a group, I simply can't find any logic in what you did. While I can't speak for anyone on those Harvard teams, I would guess that they now will be rather hesitant to mention their association with what was a top caliber team. I don't know if mentioning national quiz bowl titles would have any bearing on affecting the outcome of a job interview, but that's one card that your teammates can no longer play. It troubles me further that you may very well continue to brag of your "accomplishments" to those who don't know any better (i.e. your description on your lab's research page at NYU, you Linkedin profile). I hope you'll do the right thing and stop referring to yourself as a national champion. You've make a joke out of an activity that I've enjoyed for fourteen+ years now. This is about as bad as a quiz bowl scandal can get. Your actions will probably continue to negatively impact the community for years. Those of us in the community will bear the brunt of undoing what you did, while you are able to wash your hands of the thing and walk away. Quiz bowl at large will suffer the punishment that you alone deserve.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Matt Weiner » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:53 am

Matt Weiner wrote:A lot of the people involved on the various teams that Watkins screwed over will be at ICT this year as players or staffers. The only ones I'm not sure about are Brendan Byrne, Gautam Kandlikar, and Selene Koo, who could presumably be invited for this purpose (sorry Cody). Could NAQT commit to re-awarding the correct trophies to those teams as part of this year's ceremony?


Oh, and I know it might be inappropriate to do this in a way that detracts from the 2013 winners, so perhaps the opening meeting would be a more fitting time.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby The Quest for the Historical Mukherjesus » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:54 am

Matt Weiner wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:A lot of the people involved on the various teams that Watkins screwed over will be at ICT this year as players or staffers. The only ones I'm not sure about are Brendan Byrne, Gautam Kandlikar, and Selene Koo, who could presumably be invited for this purpose (sorry Cody). Could NAQT commit to re-awarding the correct trophies to those teams as part of this year's ceremony?


Oh, and I know it might be inappropriate to do this in a way that detracts from the 2013 winners, so perhaps the opening meeting would be a more fitting time.


I really think this would be appropriate.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Ukonvasara » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:54 am

The Quest for the Historical Mukherjesus wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:A lot of the people involved on the various teams that Watkins screwed over will be at ICT this year as players or staffers. The only ones I'm not sure about are Brendan Byrne, Gautam Kandlikar, and Selene Koo, who could presumably be invited for this purpose (sorry Cody). Could NAQT commit to re-awarding the correct trophies to those teams as part of this year's ceremony?


Oh, and I know it might be inappropriate to do this in a way that detracts from the 2013 winners, so perhaps the opening meeting would be a more fitting time.


I really think this would be appropriate.

Agreed.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Auroni » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:55 am

Ukonvasara wrote:
The Quest for the Historical Mukherjesus wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:A lot of the people involved on the various teams that Watkins screwed over will be at ICT this year as players or staffers. The only ones I'm not sure about are Brendan Byrne, Gautam Kandlikar, and Selene Koo, who could presumably be invited for this purpose (sorry Cody). Could NAQT commit to re-awarding the correct trophies to those teams as part of this year's ceremony?


Oh, and I know it might be inappropriate to do this in a way that detracts from the 2013 winners, so perhaps the opening meeting would be a more fitting time.


I really think this would be appropriate.

Agreed.


This really needs to happen.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Geringer » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:57 am

I'm going to go ahead and blame my awful HSQB Mafia on Andy while no one is looking.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Demonic Leftovers » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:05 am

Joe Brosch: You have brought shame to America's greatest state.

Scott Putzig: Jesus I lost a match to you at 2010 ICT because of your cheating?! I'm not even mad, that's just humiliating.

Andy Watkins: At 2011 ACF Nats you for some reason started trash-talking me when Dallas beat me to a law question. I found it perplexing and irritating at the time, but now I just understand you enjoy taking credit for things you didn't earn. Also now Marnold has as many titles as me now, and I blame you for that.

Shantanu Jha: Your personality drove William Dix, Quizbowl's Sweetheart, to quit the Chicago team. I don't care about the cheating, but that alone has denied the world of so much joy.

Saurab?: That time you came to Chicago practice and started blatantly looking up the questions on your phone as we played them was just hilarious. I don't know if you thought you were tricking us or not, but here's a protip, if you're going to cheat, don't when you buzz finish the clue you're buzzing on verbatim before answering.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Unicolored Jay » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:45 am

Although I wasn't affected by the most recent revelations of cheaters, I wanted to talk briefly about cheaters who did.

Josh Alman: Fuck you for giving us the Division I Undergrad title in the worst way possible. But I suppose I should thank you for being much more blatantly obvious than the others who were recently revealed, as without you, I wonder if they would have ever been caught. And thank you for teaching me the horrible feeling of retroactively winning a championship, as now I can empathize with everyone who was screwed over by Andy Watkins.

Amit Bilgi: Thanks for ruining PACE NSC 2010, making yourself the most memorable event there instead of the great time I had playing that tournament.

Neil Samadder: Thank you for showing me there can be cheaters in quizbowl back in 2009 when you did it at Solon's tournament.

By the way, I honestly don't really care for the trophy or whatever rewards OSU is getting for 2012, but I do hope there is recognition for everyone who now have received a championship, since you all really deserve it.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby merv1618 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:27 am

Andy Watkins, I don't know you at all, but from what I've seen, your ginger ponytail didn't really work.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby jagluski » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:00 am

Tokyo Sex Whale wrote:
Ukonvasara wrote:
The Quest for the Historical Mukherjesus wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:A lot of the people involved on the various teams that Watkins screwed over will be at ICT this year as players or staffers. The only ones I'm not sure about are Brendan Byrne, Gautam Kandlikar, and Selene Koo, who could presumably be invited for this purpose (sorry Cody). Could NAQT commit to re-awarding the correct trophies to those teams as part of this year's ceremony?


Oh, and I know it might be inappropriate to do this in a way that detracts from the 2013 winners, so perhaps the opening meeting would be a more fitting time.


I really think this would be appropriate.

Agreed.


This really needs to happen.


I haven't had a chance to speak with the other members of NAQT this morning, but here are my thoughts (so I'm speaking for myself here).

I was actually thinking about a way to do this on Wednesday; however, I hadn't had a chance to look back at the players on those teams yet and see if they would be attending this year's ICT. I also couldn't think of a good way to do this because as Matt said, we don't want to detract from this year's winners at the awards ceremony. I appreciate Matt's suggestion to recognize these teams at the opening meeting as well as figuring out that almost all of the players will be at the 2013 ICT.

I need to do some work on how the logistics will work (for example, the morning meeting is currently scheduled to overlap with the staff meeting, which would prevent some of the new champions from being there to receive the recognition they deserve), but none of these issues are major. I just want to spend some time and think about the right way to do this before I commit to a definitive plan.

Clearly, nothing will take away from the fact that you deserved to be recognized as national champions back in 2010, 2011, and 2012, but hopefully this will give you a chance to be recognized by the community, even if it is too late.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby gaurav.kandlikar » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:20 am

Ukonvasara wrote:Incidentally, Gautam will be staffing ICT.


I have invited Brendan to join us in driving to Chicago to celebrate his achievements, too.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Cheynem » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:24 am

The squad was baffled when Watkins—showing ability beyond his science expertise—answered the deciding question, an inquiry concerning the history of Thailand.

“Andy buzzed in, and he hadn’t gotten a history question all tournament,”

Simons said. “It was funny that he took that one.”

“It was not in a category that I’m comfortable with or generally speaking, good at,” Watkins said. “But with only a few seconds [to react], you can’t really induce your teammates to answer the question.”


FUCK YOU!
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Matt Weiner » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:21 am

Thanks to Joel for working on getting the live recognition that all the winning teams deserve. (Cody Voight, who was on VCU's 2011 Undergraduate championship team, has an unavoidable conflict and has known for quite some time that it's impossible for him to play his fourth ICT for VCU this year, but I'll make sure to take video of him getting his appreciation).

To Andy Watkins: Not only did you screw 2011 VCU out of timely recognition for a superb accomplishment (as it turns out, not only the highest-finishing VCU team ever but also the highest-finishing Undergraduate team in the history of the ICT), screw my good friends at Minnesota and the fine people at Chicago, undermine the laborious work that Kyle Haddad-Fonda put into rebuilding the Harvard team on both a competitive and ethical level, take away what surely would have been a high finish from teams involving some combination of Kyle, Ted, Dallas, Bruce, Stephen, and Dennis without your accursed involvement, and throw into perpetual ambiguity the entire outcome of three tournaments involving hundreds of people spending in the high six figures all told in travel, housing, and registration costs, you also pursued a vicious personal vendetta against me when I tried to warn people of your nature three years ago. As mere stepping stones in your megalomaniac quest to take down those who saw through your facade, you attempted to destroy both PACE and HSAPQ, and nearly succeeded on the former count; you also threatened to do the same thing to ACF because, when I went out of my way to make sure you got paid money you were owed for editing after the person actually responsible for this didn't do so, you were unsatisfied that I wasn't volunteering my time fast enough and thought the best thing to do was compose a public denunciation of participating in or working on ACF tournaments and use it to extort me into fronting you the money out of my own pocket. PACE, HSAPQ, ACF, and now NAQT--you have truly completed the Abhorrent Pustule Grand Slam of targeting quizbowl organizations with your narcissism. [snip --JTH] [Y]ou called up a teenage girl on the phone and screamed at her until she cried because she had used mildly sarcastic language regarding your wife's shortcomings as a spokesperson. You are all fucking class. It's no wonder you wasted a year trying to perform an organic chemistry experiment on the wrong reactants; even basic configurations of carbon and oxygen atoms are too disgusted to spend time in the same room as you and immediately flee. Everything you touch you destroy, and every activity and group you are involved with for the rest of your life will celebrate as passionately as quizbowl has when you do it the similar favor of leaving it forever.

I snipped some text that was about cheating on people's spouses instead of cheating on quizbowl. That, and subsequent responses, may now be read in the Forbidden Zone. --JTH

Edit 8:40 PM 3/22: Restored quizbowl-relevant parts of the previously-snipped text following discussion among the forum staff. --JTH
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Inkana7 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:46 am

I'd like to say something about cheating in general.

I mean, I get it. I'll bet part of the reason a lot of us play this game is because we like the feeling of being the smartest person in the room. It feels good! And when we don't feel like that after getting beaten, it's a big blow to the ego. But instead of working like a Matt Bollinger possessed, you, cheater, decided to just gain access to the questions. Does this really feel good? I would think it leaves a mawing, empty feeling inside you. Quizbowl is great because it will automatically reward you for hard work. By cheating you remove a massive thrill for the sake of your pathetic ego.

But worse than that, cheating hurts quizbowl. You may not think so, but integrity is important, especially if we want to keep expanding as we have. Quizbowl made Gawker today! But instead of for cool reasons that would make us proud to be in this little community, it's for a reason that brings us shame. Is this what you want the wider public to associate quizbowl with? I don't. I'd much rather prefer an article on "Yale Freshman Knows What Wh-Movement Is" than the one we got. By cheating you cast us all in a bad light.

Please, no more cheating scandals. It's not worth it for you and even worse for quizbowl as a whole.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Tees-Exe Line » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:56 am

Inkana7 wrote:Does this really feel good? I would think it leaves a mawing, empty feeling inside you.


Jarret, I wish it were so, but I know now that there are lots of shitty people in the world, and those people thrive on the fact that people in authority are too lazy/self-interested/generally apathetic or non-confrontational to do anything about it. I assure you that Andy Watkins did not feel a mawing, empty feeling after he'd outperformed Seth Teitler on science.

The fact that there are shitty people is part of the inherent personality variation among humans, but the fact that they get away with screwing over the rest of us and the institutions we care about is a function of a flawed environment of toleration and tacit consent. These events need to change that, at least in the small corner of the world we control.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby cdcarter » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:07 pm

Hey y'all,

It sucks that this is why I'm coming back to HSQB this week. This totally sucks, in general. I was friends with Watkins though late 2009 before I faded away from him and quizbowl as a whole. I wouldn't have expected him to do this, but I also am not in disbelief. I am so disheartened to see people (not just Watkins but members of this community over and over again) making the decision to directly access questions prior to tournaments. This isn't about the sanctity of competition, or the importance of knowledge, or even the obvious moral trap. This is about the amount of hard work put in by the writers, editing staff, and tournament directors to put on an event worth attending. This is about every team that drives for hours and prepares for even longer for these events. By cheating, you make all that work irrelevant. By cheating you show that you don't respect your peers. By cheating you show that you don't care about anything other than how you look. Winners get praise. Good writers and editors get some regards. Tournament directors might get a mention. The brand new or growing teams that are working their asses off to fight their student unions for funding and recognition and just want to enjoy the game get so fucked over by your dickish moves that they might not even want to come back again.

So fuck you, for ruining that for them. And fuck you for pretending you care.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby naturalistic phallacy » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:21 pm

cdcarter wrote:So fuck you, for ruining that for them. And fuck you for pretending you care.

Pretty much.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby nvijay » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:22 pm

Joe Brosch: Seriously fuck you for pissing all over Charter's reputation exactly one year after our national championship double. It aggravates me that your cheating scandal is going to overshadow all of the quality players and accomplishments that we had in the mid-to-late 2000's. If you somehow replace Henry Gorman as the person everyone associates with Charter, I am going to tear my hear out. I wasn't directly affected by your cheating as I was gone when the incident happened, but it's still galling that someone associated with a team that I have nothing but love for to stoop to that low of a level. Also, we still haven't forgiven you for buying Diet Mountain Dew instead of regular Mountain Dew, at 2009 HSNCT.

Also, the extreme lack of ethics and honesty revealed by recent events is just really disheartening in general.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Tale of Mac Datho's Pachycephalosaur » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:35 pm

All of this is especially disheartening from the point of view of a new team. Even though the people on Buffalo's team will not be contenders for a championship in the near future, it really smarts to see so many years of competition tainted. Furthermore, I think most people play this game not so they can feel superior, but instead because it is truly thrilling to be part of the process of improvement. It is a reward in and of itself to see my club grow from 4 to 20 members in just over two years, and to pursue a check in the W column at all costs sullies the nobility of the game.

Stuff like this does not only harm Harvard, Minnesota, VCU, and Chicago, but the growth of the community as a whole. This is the sort of thing administrators and student government officials see when they Google quizbowl, and they will be justified in asking how well their money will be spent funding an activity that has been so marred. Even though Buffalo is far from Harvard, both geographically, philosophically, and academically, we still have the right to a shot at success behind the buzzer. This is what prevents such success, by inviting judgment upon our community.

I am disgusted at Andy, and I cannot imagine the righteous anger that is occurring in Minneapolis and elsewhere. It leaves an unplesant tast in my mouth just reading about it, and seeing Gawker effectively characterize both Harvard and quizbowl as a whole to be full of self-centered cheaters truly saddens me (edit: complete sentences).

Shame on you, cheaters, for the damage you have done, and perhaps more importantly, for the harm your recklessness has yet to cause.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby stevebahnaman » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:49 pm

I was thinking about starting a quiz bowl team at Campbell. I still am, but I'm thinking differently about it now. Because quiz bowl should be fun, and this will make a lot less fun for a lot of people. It will be hard to recruit players to the activity if they are competitive souls, because the suspicions might be overwhelming for them. Even if that's crazy, it will still happen.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby quizbowllee » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:34 pm

I've been following this with some interest. While I'm no longer affiliated with the college game - and haven't been for nearly 10 years (Wow...), this definitely has a ripple effect across all levels of the game.

Unfortunately, I think that cheating may be a bigger problem than we want to admit. I've seen a lot of it over the years - even if it couldn't be proved.

Some anecdotal examples:

*I once had a student transfer from another local school, where he had played on that school's team. When we did the Knowledge Master, he asked me why I didn't help them like his old coach did. He went on to explain that his coach had sat in with them and openly given them answers. So much so, that he actually thought the coach was allowed to help. I called Knowledge Master and told them this. They said that the team I was accusing had an exemplary record of year-over-year high scores and that they didn't see a statistical reason to expect cheating. Well, duh. They'd had the same coach for all of those years. This is why I no longer bother with the Auk.

*At one HSNCT, my team was 5-4 going into our last match. The moderator in the room was barely two feet away from the opposing team due to the tiny game rooms in the hotel. That wouldn't have been a problem, except that when a tossup was answered, the mod would put the tossups down, face up on the table. We could actually see the other team craning their necks to see the answers to the upcoming tossups. My team captain asked no less than three times that the moderator please stop doing this. The opposing team kept it close enough to make it convincing. But, they managed to power one or two at key times after ridiculously few words. To his credit, R. looked into this situation. There was no way to "prove" it without having been there to see how obvious it was that they were reading the upcoming tossups, so I have to ill will toward NAQT. But, that did keep my team out the playoffs.

*I remember a middle school tournament many years ago wherein the hosting team played. And, their coach had written the questions. WOW. It was so blatant. The team I was coaching made it to the "championship" match against the host school. We got the first two or three tossups really fast. The host team then literally answered the next several in a row after no clues. I vividly remember one tossup going "This pres... <buzz> 'Ford'" Their coach looked panicked because it was so obvious they'd been coached on the questions in order. I actually saw her mouth to her team "slow down."

There are several more.

Why am I sharing this now? I'm not entirely sure. I think, basically, that I want to point out how pervasive this actually is and to vent a little bit. This seems like the appropriate thread, hence the name.

Unless we, as a community, make a very strong stand against this, then it's likely to continue. At the same time, though, we don't need a "witch hunt" mentality. I've been through that before, too. I'm very interested in reading about how the quiz bowl community as a whole is going to take steps to keep this from happening in the future.
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby Skepticism and Animal Feed » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:10 pm

Today, untold thousands of readers of newspapers and blogs are getting their first impression of quizbowl in general, and Harvard quizbowl in particular. What is that first impression? "Oh, it's just a bunch of cheaters"
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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby NickConderWKU » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:18 pm

Andy Watkins in 2010 wrote:While I deeply appreciate the kudos, we've no evidence so far that that performance is repeatable. Frequently it seemed that I just got lucky and clues that I knew happened to be in power (sometimes they were the one thing I knew cold about the subject of the tossup). It's unlikely but possible that all my quizbowl good luck got concentrated in one tournament; I know personally that I was playing with more confidence at that ICT than I was able to muster for ACF, which is the only way that I managed to win some of the buzzer races I did. I'd appreciate a higher ranking if my ICT success is repeatable, and I plan to work very hard so that it is, but for now, I'm comfortable assuming that that was a tournament that just uniquely suited me.


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Re: Venting rage: Cheaters edition

Postby stevebahnaman » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:29 pm

I'm not going to wade an inch further into this particular discussion because I don't really understand the interpersonal relationships involved, but it's broadly not cool when people use the word "culture" to generalize phenomena, because the notion of "a culture" is totally unfalsifiable and tends to absorb data points that aren't actually data points. For example, that Wikipedia article about the Harvard fall cheating scandal that seemed to imply that the fact that "students were allowed to share notes" was something rare, new, bad, and/or unethical merely by saying it twice.

Media coverage of any non-sports scandal has an inherent anti-institutional bias because people know who Harvard and Enron are but don't know who Ken Lay or Andy Watkins are.
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