ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by ryanrosenberg » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:50 pm

ACF has decided to expand the Nationals field to 48 teams! Emails will be going out to newly qualified teams shortly.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Auroni » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:50 am

It seems like I've neglected the packet submission form for some time and we've accumulated teams that are interested in submitting. As we still need usable raw material, I've created a third, -$25 deadline for submission three weeks from now: Sunday, March 10. If you want to submit and haven't yet indicated to me that you want to do so, this is your chance; send an email to acfnationals2019@gmail.com and we'll coordinate.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by ryanrosenberg » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:36 pm

ACF is instituting a policy on late drops from ACF Nationals this year.

If a team drops from the Nationals field without prior notice less than two weeks before the tournament (in this case, April 1), they will be required to pay a penalty of 50% of the registration fee. If a team drops from the Nationals field without prior notice less than a week before the tournament, they will still be required to pay the entirety of their entry fee.

ACF is happy to work with teams that may have extenuating circumstances that could cause them to have to drop from the field in this late time period; if that applies to your team, please contact acfnationals2019@gmail.com with the details of your situation so that we can plan for all contingencies.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by ryanrosenberg » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:40 pm

ryanrosenberg wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:50 pm
ACF has decided to expand the Nationals field to 48 teams! Emails will be going out to newly qualified teams shortly.
The ACF Nationals field has been closed at 48 teams. We will not be able to expand further due to packet limitations.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Milhouse » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:24 pm

Is there an explicit limit on the number of players a team may have on their roster (i.e. with subbing in and out)?
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by ryanrosenberg » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:56 pm

Milhouse wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:24 pm
Is there an explicit limit on the number of players a team may have on their roster (i.e. with subbing in and out)?
Teams are limited to six players on a roster without prior permission from the TD. However, if your team has a logistical situation that would necessitate more than six players on a roster, email acfnationals2019@gmail.com explaining the circumstance and ACF will consider an exemption.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by AKKOLADE » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:31 pm

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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:24 pm

For the sake of completeness: Not only did we already know that, we already invited him and were already turned down. ACF's official position now is that Gritty is canceled.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by AKKOLADE » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:08 pm

Gritty IS canceled.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Victor Prieto » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:02 am

Can someone from Penn please post a list of reliable lunch places that they would recommend for a speedy, close by lunch? We’ve been several times, but this is partly for the benefit of other teams, and partly to see if there’s any hidden gems that Penn would recommend that we haven’t gone to before.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by mtebbe » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:14 pm

Can someone from Penn please post a list of reliable lunch places that they would recommend for a speedy, close by lunch?
40th St - Greek Lady (Mediterranean), Allegro's (pizza/Italian), Qdoba, U-Town (Korean), Terakawa (ramen), Pelicana (Korean chicken)
U-Town and Terakawa might be pushing it in terms of a quick lunch, but they're definitely good options for dinner.

Walnut St - Hummus Grill (Mediterranean, one of my favorite places), Sweetgreen (salads), Bobby's Burgers, Chipotle, Honeygrow
Wishbone (fried chicken) is a bit further away on Walnut but it's fast and good food.

Spruce St - Beijing (Chinese), Just Salad, SoBol

If you want Indian food, Sitar (38th and Chestnut) and New Delhi (40th and Chestnut) are two options, but they're a little farther away.

Of course, Wawa (38th and Spruce) is also always an option. There are also food trucks along both Spruce and Walnut that are good options for cheap, fast food.

I can't make a post about food options and not mention Han Dynasty (38th and Market), Penn QB's favorite restaurant - it's too far and not fast enough for lunch, but it's another good place for dinner.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by ryanrosenberg » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:37 pm

The format for this year's Nationals has changed some from last year, so I wanted to provide a write-up of this year's format to clear up questions teams may have, and please post any outstanding questions in this thread or message me.

Prelims
Teams will be divided into 6 groups of 8, and play a limited-single-bye round robin on submitted packets, with each team playing 7 games (Rounds 1-8). Brackets will then be split 2/2/2/2 for entry into the top, second, third, and fourth playoff tiers. At the end of the round robin, only ties that concern title contention (overall, UG, or D2) will will be broken on a tiebreaker packet (Round 9); all other ties will be broken by PPG.

Playoffs
The 12 teams in each tier will be split into two playoff brackets of six. Each team will go into the same playoff bracket as the other team from their prelim bracket. Specifically, teams from prelim brackets A, D, and E will go into one bracket per tier, and teams from prelim brackets B, C, and F will go into the other. Teams will play the four teams they have not already played (Rounds 10-13), carrying over their prelim game. Playoff brackets will then split 3/3 based on playoff record. Only ties that concern title contention will be broken on a tiebreaker packet (Round 14); all other ties will be broken by playoff PPG.

Superplayoffs
The top three teams and bottom three teams in each playoff bracket will play the corresponding teams in the other bracket in their tier (Rounds 15-17). Final placement will be determined by superplayoff record; that is, the three crossover superplayoff games and the two games carried over from the playoffs. Only ties for entry into the overall, undergraduate, or Division II finals will be broken on a tiebreaker packet (Round 18); all other ties for final placement will not be broken.

Finals
At the end of the superplayoffs, there will be overall, undergraduate, and Division II finals if necessary (Rounds 19-20), following the ACF finals format.

Overall, most teams will play 14 games, plus any tiebreakers. The plan is to play the prelim rounds and playoff rounds all on Saturday, but the last playoff tiebreaker may be moved to Sunday morning if Saturday is running late (the current conservative estimate has Saturday ending at 10 PM for teams in tiebreakers).
Last edited by ryanrosenberg on Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Mnemosyne » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:57 pm

What is the planned time for the lunch break? Last year I think "lunch" was at 2:30 or 3pm? If it will be at the same time, I think it should be announced so we can pack actual meals to eat between rounds instead of just snacks.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by settlej » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:02 pm

Mnemosyne wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:57 pm
What is the planned time for the lunch break? Last year I think "lunch" was at 2:30 or 3pm? If it will be at the same time, I think it should be announced so we can pack actual meals to eat between rounds instead of just snacks.
The e-mail has lunch from 1 to 2 PM
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by ryanrosenberg » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:08 pm

settlej wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:02 pm
Mnemosyne wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:57 pm
What is the planned time for the lunch break? Last year I think "lunch" was at 2:30 or 3pm? If it will be at the same time, I think it should be announced so we can pack actual meals to eat between rounds instead of just snacks.
The e-mail has lunch from 1 to 2 PM
This is correct; lunch will be after Round 5 so as to have lunch at a more reasonable time and not to squeeze teams that have to play tiebreakers during lunch.

I've also edited the post to reflect that teams are organized into playoff brackets within a tier based on their prelims bracket.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Fucitol » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:04 pm

mtebbe wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:14 pm


Of course, Wawa (38th and Spruce) is also always an option. There are also food trucks along both Spruce and Walnut that are good options for cheap, fast food.
This is the one true philly lunch advice.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:04 pm

Will second the recommendation of the food trucks, which are absolutely excellent and very affordable. A lot are cash-only though, if I recall correctly, so come prepared!
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by person361 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:44 pm

ryanrosenberg wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:37 pm
The format for this year's Nationals has changed some from last year, so I wanted to provide a write-up of this year's format to clear up questions teams may have, and please post any outstanding questions in this thread or message me.

Prelims
Teams will be divided into 6 groups of 8, and play a limited-single-bye round robin on submitted packets, with each team playing 7 games (Rounds 1-8). Brackets will then be split 2/2/2/2 for entry into the top, second, third, and fourth playoff tiers. At the end of the round robin, only ties that concern entry into the top playoff tier will will be broken on a tiebreaker packet (Round 9); all other ties will be broken by PPG.

Playoffs
The 12 teams in each tier will be split into two playoff brackets of six. Each team will go into the same playoff bracket as the other team from their prelim bracket. Specifically, teams from prelim brackets A, D, and E will go into one bracket per tier, and teams from prelim brackets B, C, and F will go into the other. Teams will play the four teams they have not already played (Rounds 10-13), carrying over their prelim game. Playoff brackets will then split 3/3 based on playoff record. Only ties in the top playoff tier will be broken on a tiebreaker packet (Round 14); all other ties will be broken by playoff PPG.

...

Overall, most teams will play 14 games, plus any tiebreakers. The plan is to play the prelim rounds and playoff rounds all on Saturday, but the last playoff tiebreaker may be moved to Sunday morning if Saturday is running late (the current conservative estimate has Saturday ending at 10 PM for teams in tiebreakers).
Can I ask why the tiebreakers policy have been changed? This policy is a departure from previous ACF Nationals, in which all teams were given the chance to move into a higher bracket. Most teams, like my own, will probably end up not playing any tiebreakers. This policy also doesn't save any packets.

Secondly, if I understand correctly, the reason behind teams from the same prelim bracket moving into the same playoff bracket is because not enough packets were written. But, in addition to teams playing 1 fewer game, this format seems like it would exacerbate seeding issues from the prelims, which seemed to be a contentious issue at ICT this year.

If teams from the same bracket are split up, there will be 16 regular rounds (8+5+3), plus 2 tiebreakers, plus 2 finals, for a total of 20 packets needed, the exact number available. The problem with this is that one of the tiebreaker rounds will have to be played on a team-submission packet. A possible solution is that if a team that wrote the tiebreaker packet is in a playoff tiebreak, then that tie alone can be broken by PPG, or alternatively the two tiebreaker rounds can be switched in the hope that the same team won't also be in the superplayoff tiebreak.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Milhouse » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:10 pm

I would assume that the change in the tiebreaker policy is because having fewer tiebreaks reduces the likelihood that any one of them will take overly long and slow the tournament down. I know that last year Delaware was involved in a tiebreaker determining if teams would go into the bottom or second-from-bottom brackets, which seemed to do just such a thing, and which I recall people getting annoyed about.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by ryanrosenberg » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:17 pm

person361 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:44 pm
Can I ask why the tiebreakers policy have been changed? This policy is a departure from previous ACF Nationals, in which all teams were given the chance to move into a higher bracket. Most teams, like my own, will probably end up not playing any tiebreakers. This policy also doesn't save any packets.
Determining which tiebreakers would need to be played and running them was a major cause of delays at ACF Nationals last year. Potentially running up to 18 tiebreakers (and realistically, at least 3-5) is a huge logistical constraint for the control room and seemed likely to continue causing delays moving forward, especially with rebracketing having a separate break this year.
person361 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:44 pm
Secondly, if I understand correctly, the reason behind teams from the same prelim bracket moving into the same playoff bracket is because not enough packets were written. But, in addition to teams playing 1 fewer game, this format seems like it would exacerbate seeding issues from the prelims, which seemed to be a contentious issue at ICT this year.
This format does make preliminary seeding slightly more meaningful, but not tremendously so -- it's essentially swapping a game in crossovers for a game carried over from prelims, and both teams will have had the same prelim finish position (i.e. a 1 seed for a 1 seed). Given that Nationals' prelim seeding has historically been fairly robust, as well as the packet constraints, we believe this is the fairest workable format.
person361 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:44 pm
If teams from the same bracket are split up, there will be 16 regular rounds (8+5+3), plus 2 tiebreakers, plus 2 finals, for a total of 20 packets needed, the exact number available. The problem with this is that one of the tiebreaker rounds will have to be played on a team-submission packet. A possible solution is that if a team that wrote the tiebreaker packet is in a playoff tiebreak, then that tie alone can be broken by PPG, or alternatively the two tiebreaker rounds can be switched in the hope that the same team won't also be in the superplayoff tiebreak.
You also need a tiebreaker for entry into finals, so there would have to be three tiebreakers, and thus no emergency packet.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Illinois Admin » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:26 pm

ryanrosenberg wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:37 pm
The format for this year's Nationals has changed some from last year, so I wanted to provide a write-up of this year's format to clear up questions teams may have, and please post any outstanding questions in this thread or message me.

Prelims
Teams will be divided into 6 groups of 8, and play a limited-single-bye round robin on submitted packets, with each team playing 7 games (Rounds 1-8). Brackets will then be split 2/2/2/2 for entry into the top, second, third, and fourth playoff tiers. At the end of the round robin, only ties that concern entry into the top playoff tier will will be broken on a tiebreaker packet (Round 9); all other ties will be broken by PPG.

Playoffs
The 12 teams in each tier will be split into two playoff brackets of six. Each team will go into the same playoff bracket as the other team from their prelim bracket. Specifically, teams from prelim brackets A, D, and E will go into one bracket per tier, and teams from prelim brackets B, C, and F will go into the other. Teams will play the four teams they have not already played (Rounds 10-13), carrying over their prelim game. Playoff brackets will then split 3/3 based on playoff record. Only ties in the top playoff tier will be broken on a tiebreaker packet (Round 14); all other ties will be broken by playoff PPG.
Am I reading this right that ties that could impact UG and D2 titles will not be played off unless they involve top bracket placement?
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by ryanrosenberg » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:32 pm

Illinois Admin wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:26 pm
ryanrosenberg wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:37 pm
The format for this year's Nationals has changed some from last year, so I wanted to provide a write-up of this year's format to clear up questions teams may have, and please post any outstanding questions in this thread or message me.

Prelims
Teams will be divided into 6 groups of 8, and play a limited-single-bye round robin on submitted packets, with each team playing 7 games (Rounds 1-8). Brackets will then be split 2/2/2/2 for entry into the top, second, third, and fourth playoff tiers. At the end of the round robin, only ties that concern entry into the top playoff tier will will be broken on a tiebreaker packet (Round 9); all other ties will be broken by PPG.

Playoffs
The 12 teams in each tier will be split into two playoff brackets of six. Each team will go into the same playoff bracket as the other team from their prelim bracket. Specifically, teams from prelim brackets A, D, and E will go into one bracket per tier, and teams from prelim brackets B, C, and F will go into the other. Teams will play the four teams they have not already played (Rounds 10-13), carrying over their prelim game. Playoff brackets will then split 3/3 based on playoff record. Only ties in the top playoff tier will be broken on a tiebreaker packet (Round 14); all other ties will be broken by playoff PPG.
Am I reading this right that ties that could impact UG and D2 titles will not be played off unless they involve top bracket placement?
This is a good point, my apologies for missing it previously. All ties that impact title contention (overall, UG, or D2) will be played off.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by ryanrosenberg » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:33 pm

edit: still don't know the difference between quote and edit, ignore
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by justinfrench1728 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:21 pm

ryanrosenberg wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:37 pm
At the end of the round robin, only ties that concern entry into the top playoff tier will will be broken on a tiebreaker packet (Round 9); all other ties will be broken by PPG.
This is a terrible decision. Why is the top bracket the only bracket worth playing a tiebreaker for? The difference between playoff brackets is significant not just for final placement (which I suppose you could argue matters less for weaker teams)— it also determines the quality of opponents that a team will be playing for the rest of the tournament. It is vital that rebracketization is as fair as possible so that the majority of teams can play their most suitable opponents, but here ACF is saying that only very good teams can have that right.

Cutting vital games for teams solely because that team isn't going to the top bracket is not an acceptable way to make a tournament run faster.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Milhouse » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:36 pm

What determines whether an UG or D2 finals game will need to be played? Also, is there are a list of teams that will be UG or D2-eligible; the A-value spreadsheet may not be accurate to the rosters teams are bringing to Nationals.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Cody » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:07 am

justinfrench1728 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:21 pm
This is a terrible decision. Why is the top bracket the only bracket worth playing a tiebreaker for? The difference between playoff brackets is significant not just for final placement (which I suppose you could argue matters less for weaker teams)— it also determines the quality of opponents that a team will be playing for the rest of the tournament. It is vital that rebracketization is as fair as possible so that the majority of teams can play their most suitable opponents, but here ACF is saying that only very good teams can have that right.

Cutting vital games for teams solely because that team isn't going to the top bracket is not an acceptable way to make a tournament run faster.
These points are far overstated; ACF certainly does not hate teams that aren't expected to content for top-bracket entry.

Packet tiebreakers for top-bracket entry only is a defensible position balanced against the delays all-bracket entry tiebreakers engender and the general robustness of PPG as a tiebreaker. The problem with all-bracket entry tiebreakers is that they do significantly delay the tournament because there are far more tiebreaker situations to determine and read -- look no further back than PACE NSC 2018. These delays impact the quality of play and the quality of the tournament for all teams in all brackets. I get it, it sucks not to be able to break a tie at the buzzer, but that isn't even guaranteed to be the fairest result (half packets, anyone?). This decision seems like a necessary and good compromise to me, given the length of Saturdays on ACF Nationals past.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Fucitol » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:14 pm

A word of warning: April 13th is the night of "Spring Fling," which, for the uninitiated, is a concert at franklin field that leads to large numbers of drunken and otherwise intoxicated students running around campus with no regard for anything, often vomiting in random places. Probably best to avoid the franklin field area and the cheaper dining and drinking locations that night.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by justinfrench1728 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:18 pm

Cody wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:07 am
The problem with all-bracket entry tiebreakers is that they do significantly delay the tournament because there are far more tiebreaker situations to determine and read -- look no further back than PACE NSC 2018.
Having played PACE NSC 2018, I did not notice any delays anywhere significant enough where I would say "let's cancel some games to move this along."

ACF Nationals is a hard tournament with long questions; of course there will be delays! If the delays are really that untenable, then ACF should get to the root of the problem by writing questions that are perhaps slightly shorter or slightly easier.
Cody wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:07 am
the general robustness of PPG as a tiebreaker.
If PPG is so robust, then surely it should be acceptable for the top bracket as well. Clearly, ACF is giving top bracket teams priority. In many cases, this is perfectly reasonable— the difference between first and second place, or even between seventh and eighth place, is far more significant than the difference between 26th and 34th. However, placement is not the driving factor in the importance of these tiebreaker games: as mentioned above, the tiebreaker games greatly determine the quality of opponent that each team will play for the majority of the tournament! Unlike placement, this is equally important across all skill levels.

Since adjusting question length is obviously not feasible for this year, I will suggest that ACF select which tiebreakers will be played off based the margin of their PPGs rather than their expected final placement.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Goofy Evanescence Vine » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:38 pm

If PPG is so robust, then surely it should be acceptable for the top bracket as well. Clearly, ACF is giving top bracket teams priority. In many cases, this is perfectly reasonable— the difference between first and second place, or even between seventh and eighth place, is far more significant than the difference between 26th and 34th. However, placement is not the driving factor in the importance of these tiebreaker games: as mentioned above, the tiebreaker games greatly determine the quality of opponent that each team will play for the majority of the tournament! Unlike placement, this is equally important across all skill levels.
If the only concern is placing a team in the bracket that most matches its skill, PPG over seven prelim games is almost certainly going to be more accurate than the result of a single half-packet game.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Aaron's Rod » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:44 pm

justinfrench1728 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:18 pm
Cody wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:07 am
The problem with all-bracket entry tiebreakers is that they do significantly delay the tournament because there are far more tiebreaker situations to determine and read -- look no further back than PACE NSC 2018.
Having played PACE NSC 2018, I did not notice any delays anywhere significant enough where I would say "let's cancel some games to move this along."

ACF Nationals is a hard tournament with long questions; of course there will be delays! If the delays are really that untenable, then ACF should get to the root of the problem by writing questions that are perhaps slightly shorter or slightly easier.
Cody wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:07 am
the general robustness of PPG as a tiebreaker.
If PPG is so robust, then surely it should be acceptable for the top bracket as well. Clearly, ACF is giving top bracket teams priority. In many cases, this is perfectly reasonable— the difference between first and second place, or even between seventh and eighth place, is far more significant than the difference between 26th and 34th. However, placement is not the driving factor in the importance of these tiebreaker games: as mentioned above, the tiebreaker games greatly determine the quality of opponent that each team will play for the majority of the tournament! Unlike placement, this is equally important across all skill levels.

Since adjusting question length is obviously not feasible for this year, I will suggest that ACF select which tiebreakers will be played off based the margin of their PPGs rather than their expected final placement.
Goofy Evanescence Vine wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:38 pm
If PPG is so robust, then surely it should be acceptable for the top bracket as well. Clearly, ACF is giving top bracket teams priority. In many cases, this is perfectly reasonable— the difference between first and second place, or even between seventh and eighth place, is far more significant than the difference between 26th and 34th. However, placement is not the driving factor in the importance of these tiebreaker games: as mentioned above, the tiebreaker games greatly determine the quality of opponent that each team will play for the majority of the tournament! Unlike placement, this is equally important across all skill levels.
If the only concern is placing a team in the bracket that most matches its skill, PPG over seven prelim games is almost certainly going to be more accurate than the result of a single half-packet game.

Thank you guys for your feedback! On behalf of the logistics team, the schedule and our tiebreaker policies for ACF Nationals 2019 are currently set, but we may take your comments into consideration for future years.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:08 pm

I think it's a bit strange that in a field where the middle bracket teams are stronger than ever, we're still using a schedules that privilege the best teams in the game. I think it was a really good thing that lower bracket teams got an equal number of games as upper bracket teams as last year, and I'd like to see this replicated next year, and it's disappointing that this year's logistics team is snubbing lower-bracket teams in more ways than just this one. I would similarly also suggest that ACF Nationals be stringently length-capped in the future, except for perhaps the finals packets.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by ryanrosenberg » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:21 pm

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:08 pm
I think it's a bit strange that in a field where the middle bracket teams are stronger than ever, we're still using a schedules that privilege the best teams in the game. I think it was a really good thing that lower bracket teams got an equal number of games as upper bracket teams as last year, and I'd like to see this replicated next year, and it's disappointing that this year's logistics team is snubbing lower-bracket teams in more ways than just this one. I would similarly also suggest that ACF Nationals be stringently length-capped in the future, except for perhaps the finals packets.
I'm a bit confused here -- this is a new policy this year implemented in response to significant delays from last year. Additionally, all teams are guaranteed the same number of games (14), and all teams will play the same number of games unless they are involved in tiebreakers or finals.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by person361 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:07 pm

ryanrosenberg wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:37 pm
At the end of the round robin, only ties that concern title contention (overall, UG, or D2) will will be broken on a tiebreaker packet (Round 9); all other ties will be broken by PPG.
Just to clarify, does "title contention" include the top 3 or just the top 1?

Also, is there any way to see the final field? The A-values spreadsheet only lists 47 teams.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by ryanrosenberg » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:19 pm

person361 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:07 pm
ryanrosenberg wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:37 pm
At the end of the round robin, only ties that concern title contention (overall, UG, or D2) will will be broken on a tiebreaker packet (Round 9); all other ties will be broken by PPG.
Just to clarify, does "title contention" include the top 3 or just the top 1?
Just the top 1.

The A-value spreadsheet has been updated; Caltech took the last spot and the field is final barring any last-minute drops.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Benin Rebirth Party » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:05 am

Cody wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:07 am
justinfrench1728 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:21 pm
This is a terrible decision. Why is the top bracket the only bracket worth playing a tiebreaker for? The difference between playoff brackets is significant not just for final placement (which I suppose you could argue matters less for weaker teams)— it also determines the quality of opponents that a team will be playing for the rest of the tournament. It is vital that rebracketization is as fair as possible so that the majority of teams can play their most suitable opponents, but here ACF is saying that only very good teams can have that right.

Cutting vital games for teams solely because that team isn't going to the top bracket is not an acceptable way to make a tournament run faster.
These points are far overstated; ACF certainly does not hate teams that aren't expected to content for top-bracket entry.

Packet tiebreakers for top-bracket entry only is a defensible position balanced against the delays all-bracket entry tiebreakers engender and the general robustness of PPG as a tiebreaker. The problem with all-bracket entry tiebreakers is that they do significantly delay the tournament because there are far more tiebreaker situations to determine and read -- look no further back than PACE NSC 2018. These delays impact the quality of play and the quality of the tournament for all teams in all brackets. I get it, it sucks not to be able to break a tie at the buzzer, but that isn't even guaranteed to be the fairest result (half packets, anyone?). This decision seems like a necessary and good compromise to me, given the length of Saturdays on ACF Nationals past.
As far as I remembered, the NSC stats program allows for near-instantaneous determination of the tiebreaker scenario after the final scoresheet goes in since you didn’t have enter add individuals scoring.

It seems especially concerning since ACF is removing games from last years schedule to save time, which I get, lunch at 3pm is not great. Losing three rounds seems like there would be ample time to spend figuring out tiebreaker scenarios, which would certainly take less than even a half round of quizbowl.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Cody » Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:31 am

Benin Rebirth Party wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:05 am
As far as I remembered, the NSC stats program allows for near-instantaneous determination of the tiebreaker scenario after the final scoresheet goes in since you didn’t have enter add individuals scoring.

It seems especially concerning since ACF is removing games from last years schedule to save time, which I get, lunch at 3pm is not great. Losing three rounds seems like there would be ample time to spend figuring out tiebreaker scenarios, which would certainly take less than even a half round of quizbowl.
There were teams that finished playing tiebreakers something like 5 minutes before the lunch break was supposed to end at 2018 NSC. (This is a good place to mention that this is probably PACE's highest priority improvement for this year and some fixes are being implemented.) I'll concede that I should've used a better example where delays did affect all teams (since some brackets broke cleanly), but every ACF Nationals in the last 5 years has been afflicted by this problem to a lesser or greater extent, and it means that rounds extend well farther into the night than they should.

The rounds removed this year are almost entirely, or entirely depending on which last ACF National you're looking at, taken from Sunday. There is no effect on the length of Saturday rounds.

Figuring out the tiebreaker scenarios is simple, yes. But only once all the rounds end for a bracket and have been put into the stats. And, not counting the time it takes to collect teams and read them the tiebreaker, which increases the more teams you have. Tiebreakers are not an easy problem to solve (well, unless your rounds are limited to 22 minutes) and have plagued national tournaments with delays for a long time.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Cody » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:56 am

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:08 pm
I think it's a bit strange that in a field where the middle bracket teams are stronger than ever, we're still using a schedules that privilege the best teams in the game. I think it was a really good thing that lower bracket teams got an equal number of games as upper bracket teams as last year, and I'd like to see this replicated next year, and it's disappointing that this year's logistics team is snubbing lower-bracket teams in more ways than just this one. I would similarly also suggest that ACF Nationals be stringently length-capped in the future, except for perhaps the finals packets.
Could you explain what you mean here? (bolding mine.) I have read Ryan's post very carefully and do not see any difference in the schedules for top-bracket teams and non-top-bracket teams aside from the choice of tiebreaker. (Nor would one expect there to be, as 48 teams wouldn't require a schedule with asymmetry at any stage.)
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:21 am

I misread the schedule. At some point I heard something about super playoffs as well and this appears to be untrue.

This being said the tiebreaker thing still seems bizarre to me.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by CPiGuy » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:25 am

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:21 am
I misread the schedule. At some point I heard something about super playoffs as well and this appears to be untrue.
There are superplayoffs per my understanding, they just occur for every bracket like at ICT.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by jonpin » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:06 am

CPiGuy wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:25 am
Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:21 am
I misread the schedule. At some point I heard something about super playoffs as well and this appears to be untrue.
There are superplayoffs per my understanding, they just occur for every bracket like at ICT.
I'll go out on a limb and say the word "superplayoffs" has exhausted its utility in quiz bowl, since originally it meant "a final, after-playoffs stage for the best teams" and now it just means "the thing that comes after playoffs". When writing format descriptions (e.g. for NSC) in recent years, I have almost always used the words "placement" to refer to the third stage of a three-stage format. For that matter, quiz bowl uses the word "playoffs" in a manner almost completely unlike other competitive activities.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by person361 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:53 pm

ryanrosenberg wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:37 pm
The plan is to play the prelim rounds and playoff rounds all on Saturday, but the last playoff tiebreaker may be moved to Sunday morning if Saturday is running late (the current conservative estimate has Saturday ending at 10 PM for teams in tiebreakers).
If the move to Sunday does occur, would it be possible to play tiebreakers for everybody? Teams could be contacted overnight about locations, and can also be asked to arrive earlier than the rest of the field.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by ryanrosenberg » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:16 pm

The prelims schedule for 2019 ACF Nationals is attached.
Attachments
prelims-schedule.pdf
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Benin Rebirth Party » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:21 am

On this schedule we have two byes and play both Chicago and WUSTL in the same round.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by ryanrosenberg » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:25 am

Benin Rebirth Party wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:21 am
On this schedule we have two byes and play both Chicago and WUSTL in the same round.
This has been fixed.

edit: now without making McGill play on their own packet
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by tabstop » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:43 am

We will attempt to keep this site up-to-date with game scores (not individual stats) as the day goes on.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by jonpin » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:25 pm

We are aware that MIT is UG and Minnesota-B is D-2. That will be fixed in the next draft.
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:54 am

I heard there was supposed to be a livestream? Is there a link?
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by Cody » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:43 pm

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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by jonpin » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:58 pm

Columbia won with a 260-165 victory over Chicago A in a one-game final. Minnesota A was third place overall.
For undergraduate, Berkeley A defeated Michigan State 260-210 in a one-game final. Illinois A was third place.
Harvard B defeated Minnesota B 170-155 in the first game of an advantaged final to win Division II.

Recordings of the Undergraduate final, Overall final, and awards ceremony will be available soon.

We had a bit of a data loss with some of the Sunday stats, so it'll take a moment to recompile everything, as I need to dig through to re-enter some carryover games.

(Just to be clear I hope to get that done tonight but it won’t happen for a few hours at least because I’m not going to SQBS while I drive)
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Re: ACF Nationals 2019 - 4/13-14/2019 - University of Pennsylvania

Post by vinteuil » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:22 pm

How did people feel about the new playoff format?

Aside from the fact that 5 games is pretty few for determining final placement (the reduced sample size makes placement more vulnerable to single-packet swings), this format seems to have been fairly vulnerable to differences between the playoff brackets.

All six of the teams from one bracket placed uniformly above their counterpart from the other; congratulations to Columbia for pulling through to win it all, but it seems a little unfortunate that games against such contender-worthy opponents ended up not mattering for final placement.
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