ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

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ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Hobbie Klivian » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:37 pm

I am pleased to announce Penn Bowl 2016 (Penn Bowl XXV) for the Fall semester of 2016. We plan to run this tournament at the main site on October 22nd.

QUESTIONS

This tournament will be written by writers from Penn and Toronto teams and edited by a team of editors consisting of Patrick Liao, Eric Mukherjee, Will Alston, Ike Jose, and others. Eric Mukherjee will be head-editing. There will be 15 packets of power-marked questions not longer than 8 lines (including bolding for power). The target difficulty is roughly the same as Penn Bowl 2015.

The distribution we are using is as follows:
4/4 Literature (1/1 World and Other)
4/4 History
4/4 Science (1/1 Biology, 1/1 Chemistry, 1/1 Physics, 1/1 Math and Other)
3/3 Arts
3/3 RMP
1/1 SS
1/1 Geography, CE, and Trash

Each packet will also have a tiebreaker tossup from literature, history, or science.

HOSTING

We are looking for mirrors in all regions. The mirror fee will be $40 per team. All mirrors of this tournament should aim to run on either October 22nd or 29th, pending a confirmation of these dates.
At the main site, we will use the following fee structure:
Base fee: $120 per team
Working buzzer discount: $5 each
Approved moderator discount: $15 each
Travel discount: $10 (more than 200 miles one way according to Google maps)

If you have any questions, please contact pennquizbowl@gmail.com.

METHOD OF PAYMENT (borrowed from Cody Voight)

All teams must pay by the day of the tournament. We prefer to accept payment in person right before the tournament starts, but we will accept checks by mail ahead of time if your procedures require it. Teams who do not pay by the day of the tournament will be charged a $25 penalty and will have two weeks to pay their total amount before we start mailing letters to your school administration about it.

We can accept cash, personal checks, or checks from school, school district, or quizbowl club funds. We have no ability to process purchase orders, credit cards, Paypal, or any other forms of payment. Bringing forms of payment outside of the three listed will be considered nonpayment and subject you to the $25 late payment penalty.

All checks must be made out to either "Sarita Jamil" or "Trustees of the University of Pennsylvania" (must be exact wording). If you bring a check not made out to either "Sarita Jamil" or "Trustees of the University of Pennsylvania" and have no other method of paying for the tournament, you will be subject to the $25 late payment penalty. If you require a pre-tournament invoice in order to have a check cut, let us know early enough for your school to process the payment. We can generally send you an invoice the same day.

MIRRORS

Please contact pennquizbowl@gmail.com if you're interested in hosting a mirror or have any other inquiries.

Current mirrors:
Upper Midwest - UMN 10/29 (http://www.hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewto ... =8&t=19045)
Lower Midwest - WUSTL 10/29 (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=18840)
South Atlantic - UGA 10/22 (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=18999)
SoCal - UC Irvine 10/29 (http://www.hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewto ... =8&t=19055)
NorCal - Stanford 10/29 (http://www.hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewto ... =8&t=19089)
Northeast - Yale 10/29 (http://www.hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewto ... =8&t=19068)
Canada - Toronto 10/29 (http://www.hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewto ... =8&t=19084)
Midwest - Michigan 10/29 (http://www.hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewto ... =8&t=19167)
Lower Mid-Atlantic - Duke 10/29 (http://www.hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewto ... =8&t=19179)

Current field (TEAMS/BUZZERS/STAFFERS):
Penn State (2/2/0)
UVa (1/5/0)
Ithaca HS (1/1/0)
DCC (1/1/0)
Cornell (2/2/0)
JHU (2/2/0)
Pitt (1/0/0)
Swarthmore (2/0/0)
NYU (2/2/1)
Rochester (1/2/0)
Columbia (3/0/0)
"Spuyten Duyvil" (1/0/0)
Delaware (2/3/0)
Princeton (1/0/0)
High Tech (1/3/0)
Rutgers (1/?/?)
Maryland (3/0/0)
Great Valley HS (1/0/0)
"Team CM" (1/0/0)
Last edited by Hobbie Klivian on Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:05 pm, edited 20 times in total.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by sarita » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:43 am

Reminder that this tournament is coming up in a few weeks. You can email registrations or questions about the tournament to pennquizbowl@gmail.com.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Hobbie Klivian » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:28 pm

EDIT: Registration is now closed for the main site.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Red Panda Cub » Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:38 am

This tournament has many issues.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Red Panda Cub » Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:58 pm

We eagerly anticipate the next iteration of Penn-ance.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Evan Lynch » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:06 pm

In fairness, some of this tournament will play really well - once it's actually finished. The science was pretty fun.

Is there a private discussion forum available? We have quite the list of errata, which you'll probably want to fix this week. And please, please, please, please, please proofread.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by luke1865 » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:07 pm

Where are stats for the main site?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Amizda Calyx » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:09 am

"All teams are guaranteed 13 rounds." :/
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:04 pm

Will there be a discussion group created for the set?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Hobbie Klivian » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:07 pm

Congratulations for Maryland A for clearing the field; stats will be posted hopefully by tomorrow evening.

EDIT: A private usergroup has now been set up for discussion of this set.
Last edited by Hobbie Klivian on Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Bloodwych » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:12 pm

Amizda Calyx wrote:"All teams are guaranteed 13 rounds." :/
Yeah...
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Cody » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:19 pm

VCU has missed 2 Penn Bowls since 2008: 2011 and 2016. The predictive powers of VCU's tournament attendance are not to be underestimated.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by RexSueciae » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:32 pm

After a bit of an adventure, UVA's finally home, so I can make this post (I'll be saying other set-specific things in the discussion forum, this'll just be for logistics and stuff at the main site):

Personally, I'm not disappointed over not getting our promised 13 rounds. For most events, a guaranteed 10 rounds is perfectly satisfactory. 11 is eminently reasonable. 12 or 13 for teams in finals contention is unremarkable. 13 rounds before finals, unless you've got a deliriously fun question set, runs the risk of turning into a slogging deathmarch at the slightest delay. For anyone who's planning on improving Penn Bowl's logistics, I'd like to note that only playing like 11 games was the least bad thing that happened this weekend.
Short-beaked echidna wrote:This tournament has many issues.
I'd like to think that I've gotten most of it out of my system by now, enough to let me run through it from the beginning as far as I can remember (I might add things upon being reminded, as I lost about half the notes that I took during the sprint to get back from lunch). To start off, the announcement that we'd be playing 13 rounds made a few eyebrows rise, given that UVA expected to drive back to Charlottesville that night (what happened instead is a long and irrelevant story), but, well, we came to play quizbowl and there's only so many question sets in a year, of which we expect to play most, right? And not starting until somewhat *after* the announced 9:15 start time -- ehh, there's always going to be a few teams late, that can't be helped, but if you're expecting 13 rounds, it seems like a really good idea to start as early as possible. The teams that are really close shouldn't be affected by an earlier start time, and the teams from really far away have already made arrangements that wouldn't be hurt by another hour or so.

Several readers were quite good, while several could've done with more practice with the whole reading business, and this wouldn't really have been a big issue if we weren't about to blast our way through 13 rounds. Which fortunately ended up being a slightly less intense 11 rounds, which still felt a bit like a deathmarch, because for a number of reasons which I'll detail in the private forum the day kinda started dragging on. (I don't think I'm spoiling anything when I say that editing was highly inconsistent.)

On another note, I fully acknowledge that forming brackets for prelims is hard, and when people do things even slightly wrong then other people will complain very loudly, but wow, the seeding was pretty bad. One bracket, in particular, started off as insanely stacked, though it got slightly better when a team was switched out. No, this isn't just a complaint that we had to face Maryland A in the prelims, it's that we almost had to face Maryland A and Delaware A until the last-minute change.

Why did we break for lunch after Round 5? Everybody got less than an hour for lunch, we returned to play the last two rounds for prelims, and then everybody sat on their thumbs for bloody well forever as rebracketing took place. If you send people to lunch before prelims are over, then 1) the staff wastes an hour instead of spending it preparing for the playoffs, and 2) the players waste an hour or more waiting for the staff to finally get everything done and send us to our next game. If you combine the lunch break with rebracketing, as I think is standard, then a lot less time gets wasted. Round 8 (playoffs 1, the seventh game everybody played that day) didn't start until 3:45.

Playoffs didn't start until 3:45!

UVA was within about fifteen minutes of saying "blow this for a game of soldiers" and going home, given the drive, the number of games, and the quality of the event until that point, which got sliiightly better in the top bracket once we started moving again. It did not help anybody's morale to be kept waiting.

Also, book prizes not being announced until the very end instead of after prelims, and even then only half-heartedly as most teams just wanted to go home, was a bit of a downer to cap off what had become a remarkably draining experience.

I think it'd be an exaggeration to state unequivocally that Penn really needs to do Penn-ance, and I'm not out for anybody's head on a pike, but given transportation concerns UVA's actually considering going to a closer mirror next year, if at all.

Let me know if I missed anything.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Important Bird Area » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:35 pm

HotSoup wrote:If an admin could set up a private group for discussion of this set, I would appreciate it.
This has been created. Select "2016 Penn Bowl discussion" from your user control panel to apply for access.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:26 pm

To piggy back off of Vasa but having run a 21 team Penn Bowl mirror with prelim brackets I can say with perfect confidence that if it takes you an hour to set up for playoffs, you're doing it wrong. But then again I've never had to write the set as it was being run before so there is that.

Penn-ance is in order.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by ThisIsMyUsername » Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:06 pm

Cody wrote:VCU has missed 2 Penn Bowls since 2008: 2011 and 2016. The predictive powers of VCU's tournament attendance are not to be underestimated.
The 2011 tournament had some logistical issues, but was one of the stronger Penn Bowl sets produced up until that point. The absolute debacle (logistics- and question-wise) that necessitated Penn-ance was in 2012.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by AKKOLADE » Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:24 pm

The main site didn't read the wrong round from a completely different set, though, so it's got that goin' for it. Which is nice.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Kid In Green Shirt » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:45 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Paradox wrote:To piggy back off of Vasa but having run a 21 team Penn Bowl mirror with prelim brackets I can say with perfect confidence that if it takes you an hour to set up for playoffs, you're doing it wrong. But then again I've never had to write the set as it was being run before so there is that.

Penn-ance is in order.
Dude, you do not need to armchair quarterback on this. Complaints and criticism from people who actually attended the tournament are welcomed and accepted, but to claim "Penn-ance is in order" when you had 0 involvement is irresponsible and clearly intended to rile people up against our team. I admit there may be shame on us for running a subpar tournament, but certainly shame on you!

Let it be known that I am not speaking for the team here, but only on a personal basis.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:00 pm

I'm directing one of your mirrors. I'm one of your "partners" in this enterprise. I've made a lot of money for your team over the years, checks which were cashed and money spent by your team. I have a vested interest in my event having quality. I have a vested interest in my customers having a good time and wanting to come back thus earning me more money and you. When you are writing a set as it goes on which I have proof in the form of a screenshot of a communique between Eric Mukherjee and Andrew Wang, it becomes clear you and the people running your team have no respect for those interests, the people who gave you money at your site, or the activity in general. The level of professionalism in the last two months which I will detail after my mirror from the University of Penn's team has been jaw droppingly appalling. You are not only in error Max, but you are probably a symptom of the overall problem in that I doubt anyone running the show up there knows their hindquarters from their elbow.

I cannot wait for the 30th to get here.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:07 pm

No, Max is completely right. People who actually played the tournament or have already run the tournament (and encountered logistical issues thanks to the set's late delivery) are entitled to complain as they please. People who haven't played or directed the set have no entitlement to demand anything from anybody. I'm sure you'll run the tournament a lot better than the Penn team did, since I've heard nothing but praise for your logistic abilities. Until then, quit making yourself look like an ass.

(edited)
Last edited by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea on Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Hobbie Klivian » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:10 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Paradox wrote: But then again I've never had to write the set as it was being run before so there is that.
Before any more rumors go around, I would like to make it clear that this set was largely completed at the start of the tournament. Due to an unfortunate set of circumstances, a handful of science questions were unwritten at the start of the tournament; this caused a slight delay and complications in packetizing some of the packets. This is still less than ideal, of course, and our failure to catch simple errors such as grammar, clue repetition, etc. (things that could have been caught through copy-edits and play testing) is still inexcusable. For those who are planning to attend next week's mirrors, I can assure you that these are things that are easily fixed and will be fixed by next Saturday. For those who played yesterday, I apologize for these errors and encourage you to point them out in the private discussion.

That being said, any logistics hiccups barring Eric not being able to read in the earlier rounds should be blamed towards me, the TD, and I sincerely apologize for those who were dissatisfied with the way that the main site was run.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Cody » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:11 pm

ThisIsMyUsername wrote:
Cody wrote:VCU has missed 2 Penn Bowls since 2008: 2011 and 2016. The predictive powers of VCU's tournament attendance are not to be underestimated.
The 2011 tournament had some logistical issues, but was one of the stronger Penn Bowl sets produced up until that point. The absolute debacle (logistics- and question-wise) that necessitated Penn-ance was in 2012.
Misremembered my dates! As it turns out, we've missed it 3 times: 2011, 2012, 2016. 2 out of 3 ain't bad :)


Sean is - as usual - correct, but also...anyone is allowed to criticize you for doing dumb things, whether or not they were a customer.
Last edited by Cody on Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:11 pm

Glad to know the public is allowed to post in a public forum.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:20 pm

The point of my post is that people who haven't actually touched the set shouldn't be flippantly demanding that the Penn team go through the process of producing an entire tournament as pennance for what happened - especially when said people haven't produced any quizbowl sets in recent years themselves. I'm hardly saying we should censor Sean, but rather that the act of Sean specifically demanding something like Penn-ance is rather inane.

EDIT: I will also say that I find it rich that some other people who are suggesting they are anticipating the next edition of Penn-ance have themselves completely bailed on producing tournaments before.
Last edited by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea on Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Sima Guang Hater » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:21 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Paradox wrote:When you are writing a set as it goes on which I have proof in the form of a screenshot of a communique between Eric Mukherjee and Andrew Wang, it becomes clear you and the people running your team have no respect for those interests, the people who gave you money at your site, or the activity in general.
The only questions that were being written during the tournament were a handful of physics and chemistry, because of a miscommunication between me and the writers and because finishing my PhD thesis took much more effort than I thought it would. If I showed them to you (not you in particular, but the general 'you'), you most likely wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them. Whatever communication you saw between me and Andrew Wang was about those questions only. The idea that large parts of this tournament were being written during the actual tournament is patently incorrect.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Kid In Green Shirt » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:48 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Paradox wrote:I'm directing one of your mirrors. I'm one of your "partners" in this enterprise. I've made a lot of money for your team over the years, checks which were cashed and money spent by your team. I have a vested interest in my event having quality. I have a vested interest in my customers having a good time and wanting to come back thus earning me more money and you. When you are writing a set as it goes on which I have proof in the form of a screenshot of a communique between Eric Mukherjee and Andrew Wang, it becomes clear you and the people running your team have no respect for those interests, the people who gave you money at your site, or the activity in general. The level of professionalism in the last two months which I will detail after my mirror from the University of Penn's team has been jaw droppingly appalling. You are not only in error Max, but you are probably a symptom of the overall problem in that I doubt anyone running the show up there knows their hindquarters from their elbow.

I cannot wait for the 30th to get here.
I am aware you are directing one of ours mirrors, but currently you haven't done so. I'm sure the team does owe you a great deal for helping us in the past, which I thank you for and I personally and unequivocally apologize for any lack of income in your interests that this year's tournament may or may not cause. I will let Paul, JinAh and others address the problems with Penn Bowl 2016 (including the question writing comment) and any remedies that will be developed. Again, I believe it is unfair to claim that we "have no respect" for the people who attend or benefit from our tournament. Do you believe we are content and jolly to rake in the greenbacks from the unsuspecting mass of quiz bowlers? Do you honestly think our intention was to deliver a non-optimal experience for all involved? I hadn't even imagined anyone could be so callous as to actually feel that way or attempt that action, and I cannot overstate that that was in no way the will or intention of the team. We also have a "vested interest in ... quality," as we are not the bloodsuckers you seem intent to make us out as. Ill-prepared and over-confident perhaps, but willfully malicious, no. I'm of the belief that the lack of "professionalism" you are alluding to is the decision to allow a mirror in Michigan, a decision which I had no involvement in and do not have specific information to comment on, but to veil that criticism in a shroud of Trump-esque "suspense" is unneeded as it certainly could be aired at the present. I also believe this issue may have prompted you to make your initial comments in the first place, which I can understand as the situation must be extremely frustrating for yourself and your associates, and for that I again personally apologize. I am in certainly error, I admit this freely and without any doubt. I will also inform you that I have no position of authority in the team here, so that last part does not apply to me. I will let those who are "running the show" respond to that base insult if they so choose.

Regardless of our dispute here, I would like you to know that I hope your mirror runs smoothly and that the teams you host enjoy the tournament!

To Cody, I will accept criticism from others even when not directly involved, especially once a situation has entirely resolved (which is not the case here), but I believe Sean crossed a line with his provocative statements. I admit, it's always tempting to write comments like that, as you probably know, and I'm sure I've done so in the past, as you probably have as well. However, I feel that at this stage contributions are best made from those more directly involved, as they have more facts upon which to make judgments.

Again, I speak for myself only, not the team.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by jinah » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:19 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Paradox wrote:To piggy back off of Vasa but having run a 21 team Penn Bowl mirror with prelim brackets I can say with perfect confidence that if it takes you an hour to set up for playoffs, you're doing it wrong. But then again I've never had to write the set as it was being run before so there is that.

Penn-ance is in order.
I find it highly rude and entitled to demand a re-write for a set which

a) you have not, I am assuming, read [and certainly have not read in the state it will be in by the time you host your own mirror]
b) is currently being harped on mostly for logistical issues at the main site
c) you seem to either be misinformed about or are intentionally misrepresenting, as the part of the set that was being "written" as the tournament was being run consisted of science tossups which were, as Eric said, no doubt of fairly high quality and were not read until the playoff rounds, and
d) was not, grammatical and proofreading problems aside, of poor enough quality that any reasonable person would consider it noncompletion of contract or worthless enough to merit an entire other tournament being written to replace it.

Regardless of how much money you have made for this team in the past (through mirrors which, I'm sure, made a fair amount of money for your team as well) your post was uninformed, self-satisfied, and unnecessarily defamatory and inflammatory.

We are not saying that you should not post in a public forum. We're saying that you shouldn't make assumptions based on incomplete information and gossip that could have negative repercussions for not only this team but for other mirrors of this set that will be held, and that your behavior was rude and provided absolutely nothing of value to this conversation except a chance for you to jump on some negativity and flaunt your own extremely impressive ability to run a tournament with 21 teams.


I would like to apologize to the Oxford and Georgia mirrors, however, particularly the Oxford one, for not sending out the packets on time. We were working as quickly as we could Friday and Saturday morning, but we should have made preparations ahead of time to avoid having to send the packets out separately. I am sorry for any difficulties or stress that this may have caused you, and I hope that you enjoyed hosting the set nonetheless.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:59 pm

As a general statement of board policy: non-staffers are not allowed tell other posters that they do not get to post. Feel free to criticize the substance of posts, but avoid suggesting that others do not have some sort of right to make them.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Victor Prieto » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:20 pm

It's just... weird to outright ask for another "Penn-ance," considering that the circumstances that produced the original were not observed here. This set was so-so, but it was playable. Yes, the set was definitely a step down from the last couple years, but it strikes me as outlandish to request the Penn team write another entire set for these mistakes. Multiple members of the Penn team have stated that they will work to improve before next week's mirrors, and have demonstrated contrition for sending out subpar sets to Oxford and Georgia. It seems rash to label Penn completely insensitive and uncaring to the teams that came out today. I spoke to many of them directly yesterday, and I didn't get that impression.

Penn is evidently aware of the logistical issues, so I'm not going to list them all out here. I will single out the seeding issue, which I think was done poorly. I don't have stats or rosters to prove me right or wrong, though. Speaking of which, I will also point out that the ongoing lack of stats is also not awesome. On the other hand, I did appreciate the decision to cut down the schedule to 10 rounds for consolation teams, after you realized the time issue.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Amizda Calyx » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:35 pm

It was somewhat disappointing that the morning of the tournament, before the time delay had even manifested, the 13 rounds guaranteed in the logistics email were reduced to 9 (actually Rutgers only played 8.75 because Hunter had inexplicably booked their train tickets for 6 PM and had to dash out mid-round, but that's not the fault of Penn (however, we only got to even play our 9th round because we happened to run into the moderator for the room it was to be in and asked if Hunter was still there -- we had been told by another moderator that Hunter had left and that we could go home after round 8). It was also kind of perturbing that, after we finished our 9 rounds and were told to go to the control room for book prizes, no staffers were stationed there and we just hung around for over an hour with another team (Chris Manners).
Regarding the set: I enjoyed the 2015 iteration a lot more, but it wasn't poorly-written in a technical sense (with the exception of some Other Science questions that weren't so good); it was just a fair amount harder than expected, especially the literature.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by luke1865 » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:44 pm

We left early because we were assuming that playing three rounds in two and a half hours would be doable...
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by luke1865 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:02 am

Also, I would like to ask again: what metrics were used to seed teams for this event?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Rothlover » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:56 am

I'd like to posit what seems to me an obvious possibility and which Sean himself can confirm or deny. When he said "Penn-ance is in order," maybe he was talking about, you know a pun that would suggest there is something to apologize for, instead of him meaning "you need to write another Penn-ance set?"
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by The Ununtiable Twine » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:17 am

Rothlover wrote:I'd like to posit what seems to me an obvious possibility and which Sean himself can confirm or deny. When he said "Penn-ance is in order," maybe he was talking about, you know a pun that would suggest there is something to apologize for, instead of him meaning "you need to write another Penn-ance set?"
That a group of overly sensitive quizbowlers would misinterpret a pun directed at them is literally the least surprising thing.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by jinah » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:33 am

The Ununtiable Twine wrote:
Rothlover wrote:I'd like to posit what seems to me an obvious possibility and which Sean himself can confirm or deny. When he said "Penn-ance is in order," maybe he was talking about, you know a pun that would suggest there is something to apologize for, instead of him meaning "you need to write another Penn-ance set?"
That a group of overly sensitive quizbowlers would misinterpret a pun directed at them is literally the least surprising thing.
Given that a previous commenter explicitly said that he was expecting another iteration of Penn-ance, I do not think this is much of a jump to make. If Sean Phillips meant it as a pun, then he should have said so after it was clear that we did not interpret it as such.

Look, I tried extremely hard to respond to him - and you, here - with a minimum amount of profanity and vitriol. I explicitly laid out why I thought that his claims were unfounded and unfair. If you have a specific problem with them, I would prefer that you explain that instead of jumping to ad hominem attacks.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Ewan MacAulay » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:11 am

jinah wrote: I would like to apologize to the Oxford and Georgia mirrors, however, particularly the Oxford one, for not sending out the packets on time. We were working as quickly as we could Friday and Saturday morning, but we should have made preparations ahead of time to avoid having to send the packets out separately. I am sorry for any difficulties or stress that this may have caused you, and I hope that you enjoyed hosting the set nonetheless.
Just for the record, we held the UK mirror at Cambridge this year, not Oxford. I like to think that this confusion might have been why we ended up receiving the packets in dribs and drabs, and hope that someone at Oxford has had a set of 15 perfectly proofread PB packets lying in their inbox since Saturday morning.

I actually thoroughly enjoyed this tournament (at least the like 5/5 per packet I listen to). Sure, it wasn't perfect, but it contained plenty of interesting question ideas that just needed a bit of fine tuning. If Penn take this week to sort out the set's shortcomings then those playing next week's mirrors should have a great time.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Milhouse » Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:35 am

I think this error originates with the rosters our team sent, but my last name is Wolfsberg.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Victor Prieto » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:14 am

Rothlover wrote:I'd like to posit what seems to me an obvious possibility and which Sean himself can confirm or deny. When he said "Penn-ance is in order," maybe he was talking about, you know a pun that would suggest there is something to apologize for, instead of him meaning "you need to write another Penn-ance set?"
The wording of Joey's post
Short-beaked echidna wrote:We eagerly anticipate the next iteration of Penn-ance.
strongly suggests a reference to the Penn-ance set in 2012, and not just a cute pun on the word penance. Vasa's comment in his post is almost certainly a reference to the Penn-ance set. Sean's post where he said "Penn-ance is in order" came after two posts where the phrase "Penn-ance" was directly referring to the set, and he even prefaced it with "To piggy back off of Vasa..." If Sean meant it as a pun, it's not difficult to see how it could have been misconstrued.

p.s. prelim stats were released, but I don't know how many conclusions can be drawn other than most of the field didn't do very well with the set.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by RexSueciae » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:12 am

Before anybody else cites my post for rhetorical weight, I'd like to reiterate that
RexSueciae wrote: I think it'd be an exaggeration to state unequivocally that Penn really needs to do Penn-ance, and I'm not out for anybody's head on a pike
and that my points dealt specifically with logistical issues at the main site, which, frustrating though they may have been, don't really justify demanding a new question set in recompense. If people think that the question set was unredeemable, well, I think they're wrong -- I've made my concerns known in the private discussion forum but I'm not going that far.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:18 am

People, it was a pun. Smh.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by The Ununtiable Twine » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:24 am

Victor Prieto wrote:
Rothlover wrote:I'd like to posit what seems to me an obvious possibility and which Sean himself can confirm or deny. When he said "Penn-ance is in order," maybe he was talking about, you know a pun that would suggest there is something to apologize for, instead of him meaning "you need to write another Penn-ance set?"
The wording of Joey's post
Short-beaked echidna wrote:We eagerly anticipate the next iteration of Penn-ance.
strongly suggests a reference to the Penn-ance set in 2012, and not just a cute pun on the word penance. Vasa's comment in his post is almost certainly a reference to the Penn-ance set. Sean's post where he said "Penn-ance is in order" came after two posts where the phrase "Penn-ance" was directly referring to the set, and he even prefaced it with "To piggy back off of Vasa..." If Sean meant it as a pun, it's not difficult to see how it could have been misconstrued.

p.s. prelim stats were released, but I don't know how many conclusions can be drawn other than most of the field didn't do very well with the set.
It's also not difficult to see how some people reach to attempt to validate their own bullshit interpretations of what other people said. It's a stretch to say that any reference to the original Penn-ance set is an outright demand that another quizbowl set be written, which is, well, what people seem to be doing here. In conclusion, the name "Penn-ance" is quite the nice pun in itself, and good puns are good! Clearly, some sort of "Penn-ance" is in order, but certainly not another set. It sounds like this set could have benefited from a preliminary Skype mirror, for what it's worth.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:34 am

It just sounds like someone should a-penn-ogize.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Cody » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:34 am

In my view at least, Penn-ance was just the first Penn Bowl to be moved to the fall. It was a very nice and public gesture of apology, but at the same time...it was still Penn Bowl with a name change. I am confused at the outrage over this.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by cchiego » Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:12 pm

luke1865 wrote:Also, I would like to ask again: what metrics were used to seed teams for this event?
This is worth an explanation. I had gone through and carefully seeded a 30-team schedule the night before the tournament. We printed out those schedules because everyone had confirmed by then and there were just a few hours to go before the tournament. I had also created a backup 28 team schedule, but couldn't fill that in with seedings because of course you don't know who might drop.

At 8:30 AM or so the morning of the tournament, we received word that Columbia C had dropped/not shown up. This forced Sarita (who was near a printer) to rush to print out the backup schedule and seed teams in that schedule fairly quickly. Given the final results, there were a few seeding issues, but overall I think she did a pretty good job, especially after the UD A/B switch was made.

The main problem though was in not stopping at the initial field cap. Once Paul (the TD) announced that we had hit the field cap for the number of readers that we could guarantee, several teams were persistent (with various degrees of politeness) in pushing for the field to be expanded. Had the field stayed at 24 teams, this would have been much more manageable logistics-wise. A lesson for future TDs: stick to your guns on the field cap and do not expand (no matter how many well-known teams are left out) unless you have an overflowing abundance of competent, experienced moderators, especially for a long, likely roughly edited college-level set.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:19 pm

HotSoup wrote:I would like to make it clear that this set was largely completed at the start of the tournament. Due to an unfortunate set of circumstances, a handful of science questions were unwritten at the start of the tournament; this caused a slight delay and complications in packetizing some of the packets.
jinah wrote:the part of the set that was being "written" as the tournament was being run consisted of science tossups which were, as Eric said, no doubt of fairly high quality and were not read until the playoff rounds
This is more common in quizbowl than it should be, but If your tournament is not completed and sent to mirror hosts on the afternoon preceding their tournament, you have caused a major problem for other people. Please have your sets completed on time. Not almost completed. Not with "a handful" of questions still left to write. Have it done and ready to be played on the day before your first mirror. A set is not finished on time if you can't meet this standard.

A lot of the problems discussed in this thread (even the day-of logistical problems) are affected by the fact that the set was not finished on time. Whether it's because Eric was writing science questions at the last minute instead of helping run things, or because some of you guys stayed up late (or all night) to finish the tournament, this stuff tends to lead to more problems that manifest themselves in new and inventive ways. I think the writers/editors of Penn Bowl understand all this, but fighting this silly fight over how much was not done worries me a bit. Even if you think Sean Phillips is going over the top, I think the professional way to handle this is to simply admit the tournament was not done on time and apologize. Move on and try to do better next time, but arguing over the extent of its incompletion is fruitless. It's also a distraction from making corrections to the set, which is super important. If you want to shut people up and keep anybody from getting "turned against" your team or whatever, do a really good job on fixing the set and deliver it promptly to its remaining mirrors, and then do better next time.

This shouldn't be a lesson just for Penn though, the quizbowl community as a whole tends to procrastinate and I've directed a lot of tournaments where the questions did not arrive until an inopportune time or even the morning of the tournament. Not having a full set at the start of the tournament would be an actual nightmare, especially if it's not feasible to run a paperless tournament. We as a community should have high expectations about what it means to have a set completed on time, and community standards should emphasize the importance of meeting those expectations.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by theMoMA » Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:11 pm

Far be it from me, even as an administrator of this illustrious board, to instruct people how to post. I think everyone could benefit from thinking about the way the college quizbowl economy works before posting, however.

Sets take a lot of time to write, and tournaments take a lot of time to direct and staff. Typically, not everyone is getting paid for their work, and those who are paid frequently would make more money doing almost anything else. A large part of the quizbowl economy trades in respect and acknowledgement.

Because of that, I have a suggestion for people who attend events that aren't as good or as well-run as they could be. You don't have to pull punches, but unless there are signs that the editors or host acted in bad faith, be constructive and charitable, and try to acknowledge the things that did go well. (Most people in this thread have done this, and I'm glad to see it.) Quizbowl only works because people are willing to put in lots of time for very little monetary gain. The fact that people are grateful for having good sets and well-run sites is a major part of what people get from writing, hosting, and staffing. If you withhold your gratefulness for that effort, you have withheld a major component of the editors' or hosts' reward, and you should take that very seriously before composing your criticism.

On the flip side, as an editor or director of an event, you are not entitled to have people respond to it in your preferred way. If people are upset about the way the set turned out, or how the tournament was run, you have to suffer through their disappointment, no matter how unfairly harsh it may seem. I know from experience that this is an unfortunate and sometimes painful experience, but no one can legislate respect, and people do have a right to express themselves how they wish.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Hobbie Klivian » Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:50 pm

Stats are now uploaded.

First of all, I would like to thank everyone who has provided constructive feedback on logistics and the set itself so far. These are all valuable lessons that I and the other members of the Penn team will take to heart, and I would like to again assure the future mirror hosts/teams that we are working to fix any flaws in the set so that it will be polished and ready for you to play and enjoy this weekend.

Second, I would like to again apologize to UGA, Cambridge, and everyone else who was disappointed by the state of the set last Saturday. I understand that this community has a high standard for prompt completion and delivery of question sets, and I fully agree with Nick and others above that what happened last weekend was unacceptable. To prevent this from happening again, we plan to restructure the way that we write Penn Bowl next year to prevent some of the problems that we faced this year.

PS-Feel free to send me a private message for any stats corrections.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by luke1865 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:11 pm

cchiego wrote:
luke1865 wrote:Also, I would like to ask again: what metrics were used to seed teams for this event?
This is worth an explanation. I had gone through and carefully seeded a 30-team schedule the night before the tournament. We printed out those schedules because everyone had confirmed by then and there were just a few hours to go before the tournament. I had also created a backup 28 team schedule, but couldn't fill that in with seedings because of course you don't know who might drop.

At 8:30 AM or so the morning of the tournament, we received word that Columbia C had dropped/not shown up. This forced Sarita (who was near a printer) to rush to print out the backup schedule and seed teams in that schedule fairly quickly. Given the final results, there were a few seeding issues, but overall I think she did a pretty good job, especially after the UD A/B switch was made.

The main problem though was in not stopping at the initial field cap. Once Paul (the TD) announced that we had hit the field cap for the number of readers that we could guarantee, several teams were persistent (with various degrees of politeness) in pushing for the field to be expanded. Had the field stayed at 24 teams, this would have been much more manageable logistics-wise. A lesson for future TDs: stick to your guns on the field cap and do not expand (no matter how many well-known teams are left out) unless you have an overflowing abundance of competent, experienced moderators, especially for a long, likely roughly edited college-level set.
But how were teams seeded initially? I'm asking specifically about high school teams. In my opinion, the brackets were not really fair, especially before Delaware was moved following complaints.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by cchiego » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:20 pm

luke1865 wrote: But how were teams seeded initially? I'm asking specifically about high school teams. In my opinion, the brackets were not really fair, especially before Delaware was moved following complaints.
You averaged 13 PPB and finished 3rd in your bracket. That was exactly in line with the seeding. I'm not sure what the issue is here.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Penn Bowl 2016 (10/22/16)

Post by Amizda Calyx » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:08 pm

cchiego wrote:
luke1865 wrote:Also, I would like to ask again: what metrics were used to seed teams for this event?
Once Paul (the TD) announced that we had hit the field cap for the number of readers that we could guarantee, several teams were persistent (with various degrees of politeness) in pushing for the field to be expanded. Had the field stayed at 24 teams, this would have been much more manageable logistics-wise. A lesson for future TDs: stick to your guns on the field cap and do not expand (no matter how many well-known teams are left out) unless you have an overflowing abundance of competent, experienced moderators, especially for a long, likely roughly edited college-level set.
Was the field cap announced in the original post (I did a quick search and didn't find "24" anywhere)? I know Rutgers would have signed up earlier if we had known there'd be the potential for not getting a spot, but we wanted to make sure everything was in order before committing.
Joelle Smart
Ellensburg High School, 2006–10
University of Washington, 2010–14
Rutgers University, 2015–20??
PACE
HSAPQ biology editor, 2014–2017

It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.

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