Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

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Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby ManlyHanley » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:50 pm

Michigan State University will be hosting a mirror of the Missouri Open set on Saturday, November 21st, 2015. All players are eligible. I will serve as tournament director for the event. If you would like to attend please email me at cbowl@msu.edu. Full logistical information will be provided to registered teams before the tournament.

We'll most likely be hosting this tournament in Wells Hall. Registration will start at 8:30 and the first round will start at 9.

We'll be capping the field at 18 teams

Fees and discounts:
$120 per open team or $70 per team consisting of players from the same school (high school or collegiate)
-*$10 - WORKING buzzer system (at least four players on each side)
-$10 - Travel over 100 miles one way, as determined by Google maps
-$10 - Competent moderator (let us know if you would like to claim this discount and we will tell you if it is needed)

Minimum fee: $45 per open team or $25 per same-school team

We prefer payment by cash or check made out to "MSU Academic Competition Club" on the day of the tournament; if your school requires you to mail payment ahead of the tournament, please contact us and we can give you our mailing address. If you will not be able to pay until after the tournament, please let us know ahead of time.

* We are not taking any additional buzzer systems, sorry for the inconvenience.
Field: 13/18
DCC: 2
Notre Dame: 1
UChicago: 3
Horse: 1
U of M: 3
Northwestern: 1
Louisville: 1
Matt Lafer:1
Last edited by ManlyHanley on Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:41 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:45 pm

Could you please post field updates as you get them?
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Rococo A Go Go » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:43 am

Louisville is playing at this site. I think somebody sent an email a few days ago about that.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:25 am

OP wrote:Horse: 1


I hope teams don't object to slamming hooves breaking their buzzers :lol:
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby MLafer » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:03 pm

Looking for two non-equine teammates.

Edit: Ike Jose has joined the team. One spot available!
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Robert Williams Avenger » Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:24 pm

I should know more about this by the next weekend, but we might be willing to take on a free agent if we can only bring 3 players. You would only have to chip in the extra fee for making us be a non-collegiate team.

EDIT: Claimed by Morgan Venkus, pending me figuring out if all of Northwestern A can go or not.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Vissi d'arte » Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:25 am

MLafer wrote:Looking for two non-equine teammates.

Edit: Ike Jose has joined the team. One spot available!


Ike said he talked to you about me taking that spot, and said that you were okay with that. Just wanted to double-check. :)
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby MLafer » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:54 am

Vissi d'arte wrote:
MLafer wrote:Looking for two non-equine teammates.

Edit: Ike Jose has joined the team. One spot available!


Ike said he talked to you about me taking that spot, and said that you were okay with that. Just wanted to double-check. :)


Yes, Mr. Thompson is now our 4th.

Is there any chance SHAWARMA could be played after this tournament?
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby DumbJaques » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:19 pm

Yes for the love of god please run SHAWARMA.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby DumbJaques » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:07 pm

So guys we're running SHAWARMA right
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Robert Williams Avenger » Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:05 pm

What's the format for this going to look like?

Also, hell yes we should run SHAWARMA. I would be in favor of reading the two rounds read at this year's NSC last since I, and presumably a few other people, played them there.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby MorganV » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:30 am

Uh so where/when is this happening tomorrow?
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby DumbJaques » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:47 am

Yeah, the tournament is in less than 12 hours so it would be cool to get an update on where to go or what the schedule is or anything to indicate the tournament is, in fact, still happening.

(I actually don't really care about any of that, but I do really want to confirm that we can run SHAWARMA).
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Steeve Ho You Fat » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:21 pm

As a word of advice, sometimes in life things don't go your way. It's an important life skill to learn how to deal with that reasonably instead of acting like a child.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:44 pm

Steeve Ho You Fat wrote:As a word of advice, sometimes in life things don't go your way. It's an important life skill to learn how to deal with that reasonably instead of acting like a child.


And I slide up to Joe Nutter with a bottle of wine, a box of cookies and an ear dying for the dish. :)
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby DumbJaques » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:19 pm

Steeve Ho You Fat wrote:As a word of advice, sometimes in life things don't go your way. It's an important life skill to learn how to deal with that reasonably instead of acting like a child.


Surely people tamely posting in this thread asking for an update would not remotely justify this response. I don't know who this is directed to (as no one does, because it's absurd, childish, passive-aggressive nonsense), but if it's worth making this post, it's worth being specific. Either way, it's probably best not to be dishing out advice on how people shouldn't act like children while making posts like this.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Steeve Ho You Fat » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:34 pm

DumbJaques wrote:
Steeve Ho You Fat wrote:As a word of advice, sometimes in life things don't go your way. It's an important life skill to learn how to deal with that reasonably instead of acting like a child.


Surely people tamely posting in this thread asking for an update would not remotely justify this response. I don't know who this is directed to (as no one does, because it's absurd, childish, passive-aggressive nonsense), but if it's worth making this post, it's worth being specific. Either way, it's probably best not to dishing out advice on how people shouldn't act like children while making posts like this.


OK Chris, I wasn't going to mention you by name because I wasn't there, but since you apparently want me to, I heard from several people at the site that after a protest which didn't go in favor of your team (as ruled by the writer of the question, who they called), you were rude to them and refused to take the third place trophy. Now, if this was a miscommunication, that's great and I'm glad, but I can say that there were multiple people at the tournament who were offended, and, if what I heard is right, it's really rude - MSU went to the trouble of getting trophies for a college tournament, and for you to just say that "I don't want that" because you aren't happy with a protest resolution by someone who wasn't even there is inappropriate. There's nothing wrong with asking for information (and I've discussed providing more timely updates with MSU people for the future), it's what happened at the tournament that I was referring to.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Muriel Axon » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:56 pm

Players at this site are welcome to discuss the protest resolution (or anything else about the set) in the MO 2015 subforum.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby DumbJaques » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:01 pm

Oh, yeah, I see how that was taken the wrong way (though since you weren't there, you couldn't). A bunch of people were standing around after in a random game room, I was on my phone dealing with a professional emergency that had just come up, and someone appeared out my peripheral vision and handed me something wrapped in plastic and said it was the third place trophy. I had no idea what was happening, this wasn't an awards ceremony, etc. I did say I didn't want that, but in the context of like, not being the person on my team specifically who accepted the trophy (I honestly didn't even internalize it was an MSU staffer). Nor did I expect that I would be thought of as like, the official representative of the team. Had I realized it was the official giving-of-the -trophy, I certainly wouldn't have responded like that at all. Indeed, I was surprised to learn none of my teammates had picked it up, as I had assumed what had happened was that I'd merely passed the buck on to one of them standing next to me. I'm certainly sorry that it was taken the other way by MSU, who ran a tournament with some issues but seemed to be trying very hard and (one moderator aside) were quite good natured all day. Sorry, dudes.


As for you, Joe Nutter... Like, really? You chose to make a middle schooler vaguebook post calling someone out (in which you, in a feat of herculean hypocrisy, admonish someone else for acting childish)? a thing you had no firsthand information about at all? Surely an email or something would have been better here (I also wouldn't have begrudged MSU for making this post, as I totally understand how it came off poorly). But you weren't even there! You have no idea what you're talking about (a statement whose applicability is undoubtedly quite broad). Even if you were right, this would still have been really dumb and presumptive. Perhaps in the future it would behoove you to avoid combining such high degrees of derision and ignorance - or, at least, confine them to D-list quizbowl Who-Wore-It-Bests.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Steeve Ho You Fat » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:14 pm

OK dude, if you'd rather, next time I hear from someone else who has a problem with you that, if correct, needs to be addressed, I'll publicly call you out by name. I'm sure you'd prefer public accusations to be thrown about than I use reasonable discretion when discussing something I wasn't at.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby thereisafield » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:25 pm

As a moderator at this tournament, this is not what I heard. When attempting to give someone a trophy, the response, "why would I want this," is very difficult to interpret in any way other than rudeness especially given the events that had just transpired. Claiming to not recognize that it was an MSU staffer who approached you also seems rather suspect as it was the tournament director who you had interacted with several times throughout the day on behalf of your team.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:35 pm

Various in-person disputes aside, are there any updates as to who won the tournament?

EDIT: stats comment redacted, since that was kind of obnoxious
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby DumbJaques » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:24 am

thereisafield wrote:As a moderator at this tournament, this is not what I heard. When attempting to give someone a trophy, the response, "why would I want this," is very difficult to interpret in any way other than rudeness especially given the events that had just transpired. Claiming to not recognize that it was an MSU staffer who approached you also seems rather suspect as it was the tournament director who you had interacted with several times throughout the day on behalf of your team.


As I said, I was extremely distracted when this happened did not realize what was going on. There was a crowd of people all milling about chaotically, there was nothing resembling an awards ceremony (which was, frankly, one of several things this tournament should have done but did not). I do understand how this came off, and I sincerely apologize. It was certainly not my intention, and had I realized this was an official trophy presentation, I would obviously not have responded that way. This was a result of inattentiveness and exhaustion, not any sort of antipathy; I think I probably assumed that I'd MISSED the presentation, and someone was just handing this thing to me to physically take home. But again, I'm sorry for how it came off, as it was very much not my intention and I appreciate the effort you guys put in, particularly given how young the team is this year.



Steeve Ho You Fat wrote:OK dude, if you'd rather, next time I hear from someone else who has a problem with you that, if correct, needs to be addressed, I'll publicly call you out by name. I'm sure you'd prefer public accusations to be thrown about than I use reasonable discretion when discussing something I wasn't at.


The fact that you believe your post in this thread to constitute "reasonable discretion" is fairly definitive proof that you should not be the person to address any potentially serious issues, and, indeed, should probably be kept away from such situations at all cost.

Of course I would prefer public accusations against me be made in a clear and straightforward manner! Did you really just sarcastically mock the premise that someone wouldn't want public criticism of them to be whiny, insulting, passive-aggressive, and so completely ambiguous that it precludes any possibility of productive discussion? Perhaps YOU would prefer such accusations to be so oblique and childish you can't even tell who they're about, but that is because you're a moron.

What I would "rather," Joe Nutter, is that the next time you hear that someone has a problem with yet a third party over something that you have zero knowledge about, you decide NOT to insert yourself as a counterproductive tool who fails to solve the problem and, in fact, creates many more. I recognize that presumptively jumping in when you have no idea what is happening is a habit you will assuredly find hard to break. Still, it seems like a better strategy than what you've been doing so far.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby MorganV » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:07 am

chris ray when is your mixtape dropping
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Mewto55555 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:18 am

ManlyHanley wrote:* We are not taking any additional buzzer systems, sorry for the inconvenience.


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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Kilroy Was Here » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:17 am

I think this tournament can teach us that it's never a bad thing to take in too many buzzer sets. Please don't tell teams to not bring buzzer sets, slap bowl makes quiz bowl less fun:(
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:02 am

No seriously why did anyone decide don't take in more buzzers? Did you just want to tempt fate or are you slow?
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby DumbJaques » Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:29 am

Jeremy Gibbs Paradox wrote:No seriously why did anyone decide don't take in more buzzers? Did you just want to tempt fate or are you slow?



Ok, so, yeah, you should never turn down buzzers or moderators. But this isn't fair. To my knowledge most (all?) of the people running this tournament were doing so for the first time. You don't have to be slow or malicious to make a mistake or two. More importantly, the TD readily acknowledged that this was a mistake and apologized, so we probably don't need to further admonish anyone. While there were some logistics issues (not getting an update email/post was a big one), almost everyone at this site seemed earnest, diligent, and (perhaps my favorite quality in tournament staffers) responsive to feedback from teams. You could do a lot worse for your first tournament. Hell, if you manage to avoid 3 rooms full of South Carolinian vomit and a knife-wielding staffer your first time out, you have for instance done better than me.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Rococo A Go Go » Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:41 am

Louisville didn't play a game with buzzers until Round 5 today. While I understand that sometimes bad things happen, I really think this stemmed from a lack of communication between those running the tournament and the teams attending. Never turn buzzers away, and in this specific case, knowing that not all the buzzers they assumed were coming helped lead to this problem. The lack of a logistic email until 2:30 the morning of the tournament is a related symptom of this issue.

I know that many of MSU's players are young and haven't hosted much before. So maybe they are still learning some things, and that's fine. It doesn't excuse your mistakes nor mean you shouldn't be criticized for making them, but overall this is constructive criticism. The community likes it when Michigan State hosts tournaments and wants to see it happen again. Fixing problems when they happen will ensure that the product you offer as a tournament host will become better, not only making teams happier, but helping you guys have teams come back in the future.

I would also like to second Chris's comment that most of the tournament staff legitimately seemed forthright about the fact mistakes were made and seemed like they wanted to fix them. Honestly when I realized we were playing a tournament where somehow we didn't have buzzers in two rooms, I was worried we would face a litany of other problems throughout the day. Yet the moderators were fine and most of my worries were unfounded.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:57 am

DumbJaques wrote:
Jeremy Gibbs Paradox wrote:No seriously why did anyone decide don't take in more buzzers? Did you just want to tempt fate or are you slow?


Hell, if you manage to avoid 3 rooms full of South Carolinian vomit and a knife-wielding staffer your first time out, you have for instance done better than me.


OK I definitely want to hear this story. Second, while I phrased that probably harsher than I should the point remains, why did it get to that level? At what point was it worth it to stop offering a discount that let's face it is nominal, when I would think common sense would dictate being prepared and having more buzzers than one needs. I'm trying to think of a thread that explicitly said "Nah we are good on buzzers. No more please." Coming up blank here.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Steeve Ho You Fat » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:40 pm

After the tournament, multiple MSU people told me you had acted extremely rudely towards them. It's up to them whether to accept your apology, but I knew that none of them are very active on the forums (as evidenced by the poor communication about the tournament) and weren't going to call you out. I think that behavior like they described should be called out, but since I wasn't there I didn't want to publicly discredit your name. You're right that I should have been a little bit more direct and specified the childish behavior, but I will stand by my decision to confront bad behavior without spreading your name on the internet for something I wasn't there for.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby ManlyHanley » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:19 am

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the delay in stats but it appears that in the chaos that was the final round the U of M A vs. U of M C score sheet was left with the moderator. Since it would impact the top scorer I will post the individuals tomorrow when they are able to get it to me. Thank you to everyone for coming out and I promise that the next tournament I run will go a lot smoother. Other than the individuals if there is anything I'm missing please let me know.
Attachments
oulvh-pj9p0.pdf
Team Details
(214.16 KiB) Downloaded 449 times
594wv-oxtd0.pdf
Standings
(32.23 KiB) Downloaded 220 times
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Cheynem » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:36 am

Auroni Gunta!
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:13 pm

Cheynem wrote:Auroni Gunta!


Can we call the Michigan team the _Auroni Junta_ now?
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby theMoMA » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:51 pm

It appears that we have another Hoppes-Mikanowski sighting.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Rufous-capped Thornbill » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:06 pm

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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Gautam » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:09 pm

theMoMA wrote:It appears that we have another Hoppes-Mikanowski sighting.


You gotta divide by 1.2, no? Since the games were played on 24 TU packets.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby theMoMA » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:20 pm

The original Hoppes-Mikanowski performance was on NAQT's old fall set, which I have to assume had 24 (possibly even 26) questions per packet. The QBWiki page (which I've just edited) says that the limit "is broken when two players on the same team each score above 70 ppg in any format." (Based on my investigation of quizbowl history to revise the page, it appears that none of the H-M performances would have been possible without powers, more than 20 tossups per packet, or both.)
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby jonah » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:30 pm

theMoMA wrote:The original Hoppes-Mikanowski performance was on NAQT's old fall set, which I have to assume had 24 (possibly even 26) questions per packet.
28, actually.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby DumbJaques » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:00 am

Steeve Ho You Fat wrote:After the tournament, multiple MSU people told me you had acted extremely rudely towards them. It's up to them whether to accept your apology, but I knew that none of them are very active on the forums (as evidenced by the poor communication about the tournament) and weren't going to call you out. I think that behavior like they described should be called out, but since I wasn't there I didn't want to publicly discredit your name.


Good lord, I honestly can't tell if you're just trying to save some face here, or if you somehow actually believe this shit.

Based on your posts in this thread, we are left to conclude that the Joe Nutter thought process consists of:
1. I heard about some bad behavior!
2. The people who actually know what happened probably won't call it out, yet I clearly believe that such behavior needs to be addressed (never mind that I have a curious conception of what "addressed" means as it apparently requires neither establishing who did something nor what was actually done).
3. IF NOT ME THEN WHO???
4. Except... hmm, I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Maybe I should get more information? Encourage people who actually were there to do something? Contact the person privately and express concern - especially considering we're members of the same organization? Anything remotely reasonable like that?
5. HAHAHAHA FUCK THAT, LET'S ANONYMOUSLY "CALL OUT" SOMEONE'S BAD BEHAVIOR WITHOUT ACTUALLY SPECIFYING THE PERSON OR THE BEHAVIOR, OH ALSO LET'S REMARK ON SOMEONE ELSE'S LACK OF MATURITY WHILE LITERALLY CALLING THEM NAMES ON THE INTERNET. JOE NUTTER 4 LYFE.


Steeve Ho You Fat wrote: You're right that I should have been a little bit more direct and specified the childish behavior, but I will stand by my decision to confront bad behavior without spreading your name on the internet for something I wasn't there for.


Of course you do. And that's the problem. You actually believe you were confronting malfeasance while exhibiting discretion, when in reality you were blundering about ineptly while failing to do anything productive at all. This whole thing was and continues to be absurd; you're taking the responsibility of speaking for people, despite not having any idea what actually happened. You did so in a presumptuous and derisive way that, were it not for happenstance of posting order, would never have resulted in any productive discussion whatsover. Clearly some folks at MSU were legitimately upset, and I completely understand why. But rather than the focus being on the tournament staffers and I having a hopefully productive dialogue about what happened, they're brought into your passive-aggressive crap and I have to spend time explaining to you the disconnect between Nutter World and reality.

All of this is quite reminiscent of your actions at the NSC talk, about which I've heard multiple coaches and players express incredulity that they listened to extended Joe Nutter monologues, despite you being the only person on the panel who had accomplished absolutely nothing of note in quizbowl. Perhaps in the future you should accept that there are situations where you really don't know what you're talking about, and, even if you weren't so ill-informed, that things would still be much better if you didn't jump in and subject everyone to that particular Nutter touch.

EDIT: It's since been communicated to me that the panel situation was probably more the product of design failure than anything you did, so as that point was unfounded I withdraw it with my apologies (what a radical idea! If only there were some way that admitting a mistake could have precluded all this nonsense...).
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby theMoMA » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:13 pm

Hopefully the participants in this discussion will submit to a small bit of adminsplaining.

It seems as though various MSU people took offense to actions that, under Chris's explanation, were not meant to offend. Chris has now explained those actions in detail, hopefully to the satisfaction of the folks at MSU. Perhaps it would have been better for MSU to address any issues they had themselves, or for Joe to address them more directly, but it seems as though things that might otherwise have gone unaddressed have been addressed, and this seems good to me. I hope that we can move past the issue of whether Joe brought these issues up in the ideal manner now that the underlying issues appear to be working their way to resolution.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby The Quest for the Historical Mukherjesus » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:59 pm

Can we instead ask MSU to please fix the stat report, which shows Michigan A with a forfeit in the first round
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby ManlyHanley » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:05 pm

The forfeit should be in the 11th round and the Loser in that should be Michigan C. The stat sheet was lost in the chaos of the last round as I have previously stated and I'm working to correct it. I will check if there is another forfeit that accidentally got in there.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby ManlyHanley » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:08 pm

Actually I see what I did. I forgot to enter in the round so it marked it as round zero. Also if anyone else has the score of that match and/or the individual scores that would be very helpful
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby DumbJaques » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:38 pm

Can these stats not be uploaded normally? Perhaps I'm missing something, but I can't even access the individual detail page, for instance.
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Re: Missouri Open Mirror at MSU

Postby Great End » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:44 pm

DumbJaques wrote:Can these stats not be uploaded normally? Perhaps I'm missing something, but I can't even access the individual detail page, for instance.


It has since been uploaded to hsqb.

http://www.hsquizbowl.org/db/tournaments/3288/stats/all_games/
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