The Quizbowl Economy

This forum is for anyone seeking advice on starting a collegiate team, branching out into new types of tournaments, or other "how-to" aspects of collegiate quizbowl.
Post Reply
User avatar
Mechanical Beasts
Banned Cheater
Posts: 5673
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:50 pm

The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

The fact that collegiate quizbowl exists, and the way in which it exists, is a little bit impenetrable. One of the biggest hurdles towards an understanding of how the circuit works is the financial aspect. This post won't teach you how to run a club, but it ought to teach you where the money comes from and where it goes.

Inputs
  • Personal finances
    The number one source of funds when a club is just starting out and hasn't acquired formal funding from a college. (Frequently, student groups need to go through an official recognition process before getting money. Equally frequently, host schools will let you delay payment until you don't have to pay out of pocket, but they can't always do so.)
  • Hosting tournaments (high school)
    All this money ultimately comes from high schools that do not host tournaments and those school districts/ private school funds. High schools that do host tournaments effectively have their registration fees paid for by... high schools that don't host tournaments.
  • Mysterious collegiate funding sources
    At some schools, clubs like quizbowl get budgets. At others, they have to make individual grant requests for tournaments. It's the rare school that gets $0 from the administration; almost every student group will receive some support. At the very least, it'll receive the support of being able to reserve rooms: turn that power into money by hosting tournaments!
  • Hosting tournaments (college)
    Treated more completely below. A typical tournament--discounting mirror fees and packet discounts; we'll assume that this is a housewrite that the collegiate team in question wrote--will make about $95/team, because attending teams will definitely need to bring buzzers and most likely one or two will need to bring staffers. For Host X, this money, ultimately, really comes from Guests A through J's points one and two; there is a net flow of money from collegiate funds at "attends more than it hosts" schools and from the high schools that attend tournaments hosted at colleges... to collegiate host schools.
Outputs
  • Hosting tournaments (all kinds)
    Many colleges charge a fee for room reservations. Inevitably, attending teams will not provide enough buzzer systems to cover everyone, and the host will have to provide at least one--this is, thankfully, a more or less one-time purchase with some repair costs along the way. Providing lunch and sometimes breakfast for staffers is a good way to ensure that you have enough staffers. If you didn't write the tournament yourself, you have to get the questions from somewhere--either factor that into what you net per team in "inputs," or consider it separately here.
  • Attending tournaments (registration fees)
    Registration fees are on average higher than for high school tournaments. I'm not sure exactly why this is; it's likely a combination of factors. For one, there used to be far fewer collegiate tournaments, and so supply used to be a bit shorter. For another, since there are fewer collegiate teams, the only way for hosting a collegiate, rather than a high school, tournament is the right decision on a given weekend is if the entrance fee is higher.

    The biggest reason may be that the host school is more often involved in the production of the event's questions and would like to be paid for its effort--while that's a lot less common for high school tournaments, the vast majority of which, historically, have been produced by question vendors. (Note that, accounting for the typical $30 mirror fee, collegiate tournaments hosted by someone other than the question source generally net around $70 a team, which isn't too difficult for typical, non-California high school prices.)

    If anyone has a better historical explanation for why college registration fees are higher, I'd love to hear it. I'm almost certain that it has to do with the high school game and how much income the collegiate circuit gets, on net, from the high school circuit. In the status quo, entrance fees and staffers for teams that do host tournament(s) could be replaced by IOUs, redeemed when the host school brings a team and a staffer to the attending school's tournament. If every team in a circuit had one home tournament, this would work fine; there's a net flow of money from teams that can't host tournaments to the socialized mass of "teams that do," though. To whatever extent that the "teams that can't host" get funding from non-tournament sources, that's fine and dandy, but they have a strict upper limit that more active programs don't have on the number of tournaments that they can attend. When entrance fees go up, they can attend fewer tournaments, and since they're not selling their own tournaments, they can't respond by increasing their own entrance fees. On balance, this is bad for the long-term health of quizbowl; it prevents quizbowl from spreading as strongly to a variety of teams--so it's harder to find tournament hosts in the future, income in the future is lower, and if one circuit team goes inactive for a year, that's a larger portion of Frequent Host University's income down the tubes. So we want to keep entrance fees low for our own interest. I'd like to see someone with a better historical knowledge of what entrance fees used to be to contribute how low is too low--and whether or not it actually does have to do with some interaction with the high school game.
  • Attending tournaments (transportation)
    The single biggest financial difference between high school and college quizbowl is that the average distance traveled to go to a tournament is higher. (This is because there are fewer collegiate teams. Since a tournament only makes a decent profit if it attracts more than some cutoff number of teams, this means that a tournament is only profitable if it is some cutoff distance away from the nearest competing tournament on the same date (and sometimes in the same range of dates, as many, if not most, programs lack the money to attend every tournament on the calendar).) The average distance being higher doesn't just mean that the cost of gas is 100 miles worth instead of 20; it also results in hotel rooms and, in extreme cases (or in areas where having a car at college is uncommon or impossible for undergraduates, like the northeast), plane fare.
Andrew Watkins
Susan
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 1812
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:43 am

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Susan »

Are you intentionally ignoring "quizbowlers' personal finances" as an input source or have we truly reached the decadent years of quizbowl in which people cannot conceive of paying their own way at tournaments?

I am aware of the irony of a Chicago alum pointing this out, by the way.
Susan
UChicago alum (AB 2003, PhD 2009)
Member emerita, ACF
User avatar
Mechanical Beasts
Banned Cheater
Posts: 5673
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:50 pm

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

myamphigory wrote:Are you intentionally ignoring "quizbowlers' personal finances" as an input source or have we truly reached the decadent years of quizbowl in which people cannot conceive of paying their own way at tournaments?

I am aware of the irony of a Chicago alum pointing this out, by the way.
That's true; I've done the same myself. Edited up top.
Andrew Watkins
User avatar
Skepticism and Animal Feed
Auron
Posts: 3238
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed »

Harvard is a great example of a team that built massive revenue streams from the ground up in a very short time period. In 2007, when I played my first tournament as a member of the Harvard team, our entry fees were paid for by the grandparents of one of our teammates. In 2010, the President of the Harvard team is unable to think of "personal finances" as an input until prompted.

You too can go from begging seniors for money to robber baron decadence in a few short years.
Bruce
Harvard '10 / UChicago '07 / Roycemore School '04
ACF Member emeritus
My guide to using Wikipedia as a question source
User avatar
theMoMA
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5999
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:00 am

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by theMoMA »

Costs also include stuff required to run events and practices: buzzers, room reservation costs (if necessary), question costs, etc.
Andrew Hart
Minnesota alum
User avatar
Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant
Yuna
Posts: 853
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:05 pm
Location: Evanston, IL

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant »

Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:[*] Mysterious collegiate funding sources
At some schools, clubs like quizbowl get budgets. At others, they have to make individual grant requests for tournaments. It's the rare school that gets $0 from the administration; almost every student group will receive some support. At the very least, it'll receive the support of being able to reserve rooms: turn that power into money by hosting tournaments! [/*]
I don't know about other schools, but at Georgia Tech, competitive organizations are required to collect at least $35 dues per student per semester (and at least 1.5 times the student rate for non-student members) before submitting a budget. This is the primary reason we don't apply for SGA money.
Farrah Bilimoria
Formerly of Georgia Tech and Central High School (Macon)
User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 6135
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Important Bird Area »

Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:The biggest reason may be that the host school is more often involved in the production of the event's questions and would like to be paid for its effort--while that's a lot less common for high school tournaments, the vast majority of which, historically, have been produced by question vendors. ...
If anyone has a better historical explanation for why college registration fees are higher, I'd love to hear it.
I'm reasonably certain this is a direct consequence of the fact there are (and always will be) more high school teams than college teams. College registration fees have to be higher because the question-writers get paid the same rate, but there are fewer teams competing on the questions to spread around the cost. (Compare to the high school nationals, which cost even more than a typical college tournament- again because the audience is smaller, and because you have to add additional costs for nationals-specific requirements like "fly in a nationals-caliber moderating staff" and "find a venue that can host 200+ teams".)
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
User avatar
Mike Bentley
Sin
Posts: 6465
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:03 pm
Location: Bellevue, WA
Contact:

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Mike Bentley »

This maybe isn't the thread for it, but I've been feeling more and more the amount of money clubs get for hosting a collegiate tournament is out of whack with what the editors get. For a typical packet submission tournament, mirror fees generally end up being along the lines of 20-40% of what the hosts made. Writing or editing a collegiate tournament is an incredible amount of work, whereas hosting a tournament is generally a pretty light workload--maybe one person needs to spend some time posting an announcement and dealing with field updates, and then obviously people need to read and scorekeep during the actual event. Plus, there's been a trend in the past few years where "hosting" a tournament has sometimes devolved into providing some rooms (sometimes not officially reserved) and having people on byes or outside staffers fumble through the reading while actual team members still play the tournament (for free, usually). In situations like these I don't really see why the editors should not be collecting a much higher percentage of the profit, as they clearly worked a lot harder on making the tournament happen than the hosts.
Mike Bentley
Treasurer, Partnership for Academic Competition Excellence
Adviser, Quizbowl Team at University of Washington
University of Maryland, Class of 2008
User avatar
theMoMA
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5999
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:00 am

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by theMoMA »

College fees are higher also because tournaments have bigger drawing power. The reason that college players are willing to drive 400 miles to a tournament instead of 40 (like a typical high school team) is the same reason that teams will pay $120 instead of $60 per team.

Also, I think people are too wary of making money from quizbowl. I want to reward the people who put together good tournaments, and that includes compensating them to the highest reasonable degree possible (along with thanking and praising them for their effort, providing them with feedback and critiques as called for, and going to their future tournaments). Writing questions is a lot of work. Sure, we should make concessions when cost of entry could be prohibitive for certain teams, especially newer ones. But existing teams are consistently willing and able to pay around $100 for a quality tournament, and I see no reason to artificially lower that when doing so adversely affects the writers and editors the most.
Andrew Hart
Minnesota alum
User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 6135
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Important Bird Area »

Crazy Andy Watkins wrote: Registration fees are on average higher than for high school tournaments. I'm not sure exactly why this is; it's likely a combination of factors. For one, there used to be far fewer collegiate tournaments, and so supply used to be a bit shorter. For another, since there are fewer collegiate teams, the only way for hosting a collegiate, rather than a high school, tournament is the right decision on a given weekend is if the entrance fee is higher.
So I just drew up a quizbowl-economics flowchart.

Image
Quizbowl Economics by black_throated_green_warbler, on Flickr


Where A1 and A2 are high school and college registration fees and B is mirror fees.

For most cases, this diagram is symmetrical. The obvious exceptions:

1) College teams have greater travel costs than high school teams. This will remain true indefinitely into the future.*

2) The money college teams use to travel has to come from somewhere. Money tends to concentrate on the college side of the circuit because college teams host high school tournaments, and (few to) no high school teams host college tournaments. (arrow C1). Arrow C2, hs teams playing college tournaments, does not (yet) cause this effect.

3) The ideal for any individual team is to emancipate itself from dependence on external funding sources by hosting lots of tournaments. The circuit as a whole, however, is incapable of doing this because there has to be income from outside the quizbowl economy to balance the expenses of buzzers and travel.

4) Furthermore, teams (primarily college teams, due to the factors outlined in 2 above) that do achieve freedom from external funding do so because they host lots of tournaments. Hosting tournaments depends on the presence of trained moderators; I have not diagrammed the parallel time economy of quizbowl, but I postulate that every new club will require some amount of start-up funding: to buy its first buzzer and attend a couple of tournaments. Once new players understand and enjoy quizbowl, they can then be convinced to spend a Saturday moderating at a tournament.

Notes:

* It is theoretically possible for some form of circuit growth to expand the number of college teams out of proportion to the number of high school teams. While this is possible for limited subsets of the quizbowl community (see: Harvard Fall Tournament field updates), the entire past history of circuit expansion indicates that high school and college circuits nationwide tend to grow in parallel (as high school players found college teams and college teams host high school events).
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
User avatar
Skepticism and Animal Feed
Auron
Posts: 3238
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed »

I wonder if one day ACF, NAQT, or other question vendor will provide funding, supplies, or administrative support to new teams, hoping to get a constant stream of entry fees out of it later.
Bruce
Harvard '10 / UChicago '07 / Roycemore School '04
ACF Member emeritus
My guide to using Wikipedia as a question source
User avatar
cvdwightw
Auron
Posts: 3291
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Southern CA
Contact:

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by cvdwightw »

Jeff, I think there is a missing arrow - since many question writers are students or former students who still attend tournaments, some proportion of the money paid to question writers goes back into "out of pocket." Based on my experience, a college student with no organizational support can pay his or her share of a year's tournament entry fees by writing at a reasonable rate for NAQT and/or HSAPQ and avoiding fees for super-late packets.

EDIT: The other obvious asymmetry in the input part of the diagram. Many high schools portion a small amount of the budget for quizbowl, even if this budget is far too small to actually support the team. In particular, many high schools pay some amount of money to join a quizbowl league; a portion of that money is used to buy the questions the league uses (this money then bypasses "teams" and goes directly to question vendors, some of which are NAQT and HSAPQ, which distribute money to writers that may inject that money back into the circuit). Most colleges give no money to their quizbowl teams. Therefore, not only are there more high schools, but because of the way high school budgets work, the average per-school amount that school budgets kick into the quizbowl economy is much higher in high schools.
Last edited by cvdwightw on Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Dwight Wynne
socalquizbowl.org
UC Irvine 2008-2013; UCLA 2004-2007; Capistrano Valley High School 2000-2003

"It's a competition, but it's not a sport. On a scale, if football is a 10, then rowing would be a two. One would be Quiz Bowl." --Matt Birk on rowing, SI On Campus, 10/21/03

"If you were my teammate, I would have tossed your ass out the door so fast you'd be emitting Cerenkov radiation, but I'm not classy like Dwight." --Jerry
User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 6135
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Important Bird Area »

"Funding" already sort of exists in the sense of "new team" discounts. I can't imagine how it would be possible for question vendors to go further and, for instance, buy new teams buzzers or pay teams' travel expenses to tournaments.

What kind of "administrative support" did you have in mind, Bruce?
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 6135
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Important Bird Area »

cvdwightw wrote:Jeff, I think there is a missing arrow - since many question writers are students or former students who still attend tournaments, some proportion of the money paid to question writers goes back into "out of pocket." Based on my experience, a college student with no organizational support can pay his or her share of a year's tournament entry fees by writing at a reasonable rate for NAQT and/or HSAPQ and avoiding fees for super-late packets.
This is undoubtedly true; I couldn't come up with a convenient method of indicating this on the diagram.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
User avatar
Skepticism and Animal Feed
Auron
Posts: 3238
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed »

bt_green_warbler wrote: What kind of "administrative support" did you have in mind, Bruce?
Help with getting recognized and funded by their university. For instance, sending a brochure explaining what quizbowl is, with pictures of trophies, etc., to let the university know that this is a legitimate activity which could give them some prestige (or at least something to display in a trophy case).

This is probably pretty cheap to provide, and if it works out, well you're making hundreds of dollars a year off them for at least a little bit.
Bruce
Harvard '10 / UChicago '07 / Roycemore School '04
ACF Member emeritus
My guide to using Wikipedia as a question source
Kyle
Auron
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Kyle »

Morraine Man wrote:Harvard is a great example of a team that built massive revenue streams from the ground up in a very short time period. In 2007, when I played my first tournament as a member of the Harvard team, our entry fees were paid for by the grandparents of one of our teammates. In 2010, the President of the Harvard team is unable to think of "personal finances" as an input until prompted.

You too can go from begging seniors for money to robber baron decadence in a few short years.
From one person interested in history to another, let me just point out that this is ever so slightly overstated. We had enough money to pay the entry fees of either EFT or Deep Bench, but not to go to both without asking Brown to let us wait until after HFT to pay them (something I would have asked to do had it been necessary). This problem was conveniently solved by a "donation" of the sort you mention, but, all told, our income for the fall 2007 semester in fact greatly exceeded the costs.

Incidentally, my favorite new source of money is the UK energy lawyers' gala energy-themed quiz. Clubs in need of money should find themselves some American energy lawyers.
Kyle Haddad-Fonda
Harvard '09
Oxford '13
User avatar
Skepticism and Animal Feed
Auron
Posts: 3238
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed »

ITT: The difference between a political scientist who uses history for evidence of large-scale narratives, and an academic historian who scours archives for details.
Bruce
Harvard '10 / UChicago '07 / Roycemore School '04
ACF Member emeritus
My guide to using Wikipedia as a question source
Kyle
Auron
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Kyle »

The truth is important, Bruce.
Kyle Haddad-Fonda
Harvard '09
Oxford '13
User avatar
Mechanical Beasts
Banned Cheater
Posts: 5673
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:50 pm

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

Morraine Man wrote:ITT: The difference between a political scientist who uses history for evidence of large-scale narratives.
I mean, if the details aren't right you've got yourself a flawed narrative.
Andrew Watkins
User avatar
Papa's in the House
Tidus
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:43 pm

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Papa's in the House »

I wanted to post this yesterday, but just didn't have the time.
Bentley Like Beckham wrote:Writing or editing a collegiate tournament is an incredible amount of work, whereas hosting a tournament is generally a pretty light workload--maybe one person needs to spend some time posting an announcement and dealing with field updates, and then obviously people need to read and scorekeep during the actual event.
I would agree that hosting a tournament requires less work than editing a tournament does, but I wouldn't claim that hosting a tournament involves a "light workload."
Bentley Like Beckham wrote:Plus, there's been a trend in the past few years where "hosting" a tournament has sometimes devolved into providing some rooms (sometimes not officially reserved) and having people on byes or outside staffers fumble through the reading while actual team members still play the tournament (for free, usually). In situations like these I don't really see why the editors should not be collecting a much higher percentage of the profit, as they clearly worked a lot harder on making the tournament happen than the hosts.
Now, if this is the case, I would whole-heartedly agree with your point that editors should receive more of the money made by a team that hosts a tournament. I hope this is never the case at a tournament I am involved in hosting. I will also grant that editors should receive the money from mirror fees when they are from different schools (as Andy pointed out occurred with T Party).

My real problem with your argument comes from how the funds collected at tournaments are used in the "hosting" and "editing" cases. Schools that host tournaments turn around and spend that money attending other tournaments. In our case, that amounts to several thousand dollars that we need to raise each year to pay for the travel, hotel, and registration costs to attend tournaments. Unless I am mistaken, editors keep the money they make from mirror fees. This money does not flow back into the quiz bowl economy unless those editors personally finance their teams.

I'm all for fair wages for the editors that make these tournaments happen, but I (and I assume many others) would prefer to play a tournament than host a tournament. I would also prefer to host the fewest number of tournaments possible such that I can attend the number of tournaments I would like to attend. Raising the amount of money paid to editors would increase the number of tournaments I would need to host and reduce the number of tournaments I could potentially attend. When I am already hosting 6+ tournaments a year, it becomes much harder to raise the number of moderators necessary to host a tournament and reduces overall tournament quality. At some point, this reduction in tournament quality due to moderator fatigue will eclipse the increase in tournament quality brought about by a better paid editing staff.

EDIT: More information caused me to change my views. As I continue to learn more information, I will continue to change my views.
Last edited by Papa's in the House on Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Charles Martin Jr.
University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign
Academic Buzzer Team | President
B.S. in Accountancy, August 2011
B.S. in Finance, August 2011
MAS Program, Class of 2012
User avatar
Mechanical Beasts
Banned Cheater
Posts: 5673
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:50 pm

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

Depends on the tournament, to your latter point. Harvard earns the money from HFT; on the other hand, the T-Party money was split between the editors because they weren't all from one school.
Andrew Watkins
User avatar
grapesmoker
Sin
Posts: 6345
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:23 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by grapesmoker »

Papa's in the House wrote:Add in the hours that members of a club must spend writing (if it's a housewrite) and moderating for a tournament and I'd venture that the "hosting" workload for a tournament is at least half of the "editing" workload.*

*My assumptions for an "editing" workload are taken from one source only and apply only to tournaments ranging from novice to "regular" difficulty. For tournaments like ACF Nationals or CO my comments hold no water. My assumptions also do not include the opportunity costs that arise from the distribution of the "hosting" and "editing" workloads.
I just want to respond to this preposterous assertion. First of all, you cannot take the hours you put into a housewrite and call that effort you put into hosting! Those aren't at all the same thing and your conflation of the two is bizarre. Second, if you care about the quality of your tournament, you will spend a ridiculous amount of time on it. Editing is hard, and it's even harder when you're doing a novice or a regular-difficulty tournament because in those cases you can't just up and write about Billy Phelan's Greatest Game because that's what you read last month. Your assumptions are just plain wrong, probably because you've never actually edited a tournament yourself.

Editors put in absurd hours and their compensation for it is minimal. We've known that for a long time, and for the most part we're ok with that because that's what keeps the game running. What's not ok is pretending that the 10 hours of minimal cognitive effort represented by reading questions to teams is in any way comparable to editing a tournament.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
presently: John Jay College Economics
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance
User avatar
Gautam
Auron
Posts: 1413
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:28 pm
Location: Zone of Avoidance
Contact:

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Gautam »

Papa's in the House wrote:I would agree that hosting a tournament requires less work than editing a tournament does, but I wouldn't claim that hosting a tournament involves a "light workload." The list of tasks that I still need to complete before the UIUC mirror of EFT is in the double digits and the responsibilities associated with being a tournament director will likely take as much time (if not more) than either of my part-time jobs in the week leading up to the tournament. Multiply this workload across the other tournament directors (after accounting for the differences in field size) and the workload associated with hosting a tournament adds up. Add in the hours that members of a club must spend writing (if it's a housewrite) and moderating for a tournament and I'd venture that the "hosting" workload for a tournament is at least half of the "editing" workload.*

[...]

My real problem with your argument comes from how the funds collected at tournaments are used in the "hosting" and "editing" cases. Schools that host tournaments turn around and spend that money attending other tournaments. In our case, that amounts to several thousand dollars that we need to raise each year to pay for the travel, hotel, and registration costs to attend tournaments. Unless I am mistaken, editors keep the money they make from mirror fees. This money does not flow back into the quiz bowl economy unless those editors personally finance their teams.
1. If you're looking at tournaments as a list of tasks, then editing still has hosting beat. Depending on your proficiency in editing, each question you work on can be a "task" that requires anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour to complete (an hour is still way too much, but I do end up putting this kind of time on a fair proportion of questions as I start early.) Multiply that number by around 320/320 for a tournament, and you're looking at several days worth of time you need to allocate for these tasks.

2. Editors do usually keep money from mirror fees in their pockets, but also spend a lot of money on side events and stuff. Some folks also provide their own vehicles for travel, in effect underwriting some of the cost of travel for the club (in comparison to going to your university's fleet services and paying $0.45 per mile for a van or whatever.) Editors might not be completely paying for their teams, but a fair portion of editing fees do indeed flow back into quizbowl or make quizbowl tournaments happen in one form or another.

--Gautam

EDIT: also, yeah, questions for MUTs and ACF Falls require about as much time as do questions for MOs and Gaddises.
Gautam - ACF
Currently tending to the 'quizbowl hobo' persuasion.
User avatar
Papa's in the House
Tidus
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:43 pm

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Papa's in the House »

grapesmoker wrote:
Papa's in the House wrote:Add in the hours that members of a club must spend writing (if it's a housewrite) and moderating for a tournament and I'd venture that the "hosting" workload for a tournament is at least half of the "editing" workload.*

*My assumptions for an "editing" workload are taken from one source only and apply only to tournaments ranging from novice to "regular" difficulty. For tournaments like ACF Nationals or CO my comments hold no water. My assumptions also do not include the opportunity costs that arise from the distribution of the "hosting" and "editing" workloads.
Your assumptions are just plain wrong, probably because you've never actually edited a tournament yourself.
That's why I noted that my assumptions came from one source, that source being my observations of Ike Jose at work editing EFT. After I made the post you quoted I saw much more clearly how much more time editing takes and have subsequently determined that not all of my comments were quite correct. Thus, I will retract much of what I said on this particular point from my post by editing that post now.
Charles Martin Jr.
University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign
Academic Buzzer Team | President
B.S. in Accountancy, August 2011
B.S. in Finance, August 2011
MAS Program, Class of 2012
User avatar
Papa's in the House
Tidus
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:43 pm

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Papa's in the House »

gkandlikar wrote:2. Editors do usually keep money from mirror fees in their pockets, but also spend a lot of money on side events and stuff. Some folks also provide their own vehicles for travel, in effect underwriting some of the cost of travel for the club (in comparison to going to your university's fleet services and paying $0.45 per mile for a van or whatever.) Editors might not be completely paying for their teams, but a fair portion of editing fees do indeed flow back into quizbowl or make quizbowl tournaments happen in one form or another.
Historically, the club has paid for our members' entrance fees for side events and reimbursed drivers for driving people to tournaments, which is part of the reason for my argument in favor of hosts keeping more money. As it appears this is not standard practice amongst all clubs, I can better understand the argument for editors keeping more money.
Charles Martin Jr.
University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign
Academic Buzzer Team | President
B.S. in Accountancy, August 2011
B.S. in Finance, August 2011
MAS Program, Class of 2012
User avatar
theMoMA
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5999
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:00 am

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by theMoMA »

Again, I think there is somewhat of an undertone of distrust about people getting paid for writing events. And I just don't understand. I'm perfectly willing to pay a reasonable amount (probably up to $20 for a side tournament and $40 individually for a full event) to go to events that I know are going to be awesome. Writers and editors put a lot of work into making good tournaments happen; we should be happy to compensate them what we can for it, especially when most of that money comes out of our team budgets.
Andrew Hart
Minnesota alum
User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 7222
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Cheynem »

$20 for a side event seems a bit steep to me, unless there are a ton of rounds and it is awesome. Part of this may stem from the fact that I have only charged for one of the side events I have written, though.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger
User avatar
Ike
Auron
Posts: 1063
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:01 pm

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Ike »

Hey I have no idea what's been said in this thread, but any wrong editing opinikons Charles Martin has said is obviously not coming from my mouth.
Ike
UIUC 13
User avatar
Captain Sinico
Auron
Posts: 2675
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 1:46 pm
Location: Champaign, Illinois

Re: The Quizbowl Economy

Post by Captain Sinico »

I think the number of man-hours put into staffing the average tournament will be on the order of or exceed the number put into editing it. Let's examine that.
As I find Gautam's estimates reasonable, I'll follow them to the conclusion that on the order of 300 hours will be spent producing questions for a tournament. That squares with my own experience as well. Let's use the previously stated estimate that the average tournament requires about 10 hours of labor per staffer.
Then a tournament with the eminently reachable number of much more than 30 staffers over all sites will have more labor time spent on hosting than on editing. Even the amended claim "editing requires more work time than hosting any single site" is still suspect as single sites can and sometimes do have on the order of or more than 30 staffers.
At any rate, it's certain given these assumptions that the hosting labor time for any tournament, excepting tiny tournaments and/or instances of host improvidence of staff, is going to be of the same order as the writing/editing labor time.

All that said, I don't find that labor time parity makes an argument one way or another. It's obvious that editing is more labor-intensive and requires a higher degree of skill than does any hosting post, excepting maybe high-level direction at very large tournaments. So the rates of compensation in a Marxian sense should be much higher for editing.

I do, however, think an argument can be made that it's better for quizbowl to have money controlled by hosts, as teams are more likely than individuals in my experience to return income to the circuit. As editors must be compensated to some degree, however, it's clear to me that there's a balance to be struck here. I'm not certain the existing one is entirely wrong.

M
Mike Sorice
Former Coach, Centennial High School of Champaign, IL (2014-2020) & Team Illinois (2016-2018)
Alumnus, Illinois ABT (2000-2002; 2003-2009) & Fenwick Scholastic Bowl (1999-2000)
Member, ACF (Emeritus), IHSSBCA, & PACE
Post Reply