Groger Ranks 2018-19

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ansonberns
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Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by ansonberns » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:35 pm

William Groger, John John Groger, and Arjun Nageswaran have requested that I post these statistical rankings they have developed on their behalf. Only teams that have played a tournament this season have been included in the rankings, and thus they should be viewed more as a relative ranking of the teams listed than an absolute, overall ranking. The rankings use the formula (((12.5 * Adjusted Powers/Games) + (125 * Adjusted Points per Bonus/30))/2) - (Negs/Games). This formula makes it so that a team that gets 8 adjusted powers will get 50 points for the power section, and a team with 24 aPPB will get 50 points in the bonus section. This makes up the bulk of the ranking, with teams that get 24 aPPB and 8 adjusted powers scoring 100 points in this part. The negs per game are then subtracted, to differentiate between teams of similar skill level. Due to a lack of resources, only teams with 18 aPPB and higher were ranked. A-Sets and MSNCT were not included. This is not meant to be a competitor to HSQBRank. Rather, it attempts to be another method of ranking teams using different factors. Perhaps curiosity killed the cat, but please don't kill our rankings!

1 Hunter A
2 Uni Lab A
3 Wayzata A
4 Stevenson A
5 Beavercreek A
6 Miami Valley A
7 IMSA A
8 Auburn A
9 High Tech A
10 Lexington A
11 Chattahoochee A
12 Ithaca A
13 "A* Four"
14 DCC A
15 Wilmington Charter A
16 Greens Farms A
17 Troy A
18 Solon A
19 Millburn A
20 St. Marks A
21 Colleyville Heritage A
22 Plano West A
23 Cistercian A
24 Parish Episcopal A
25 GNS A
26 High Tech B
27 Phillips Academy A
28 Henderson County A
29 Singapore American A
30 Allderdice A
31 Glasgow A
32 Westview A
33 Greenhill A
34 George Washington A
35 Sandburg A
36 Dunbar A
37 Olympian A
38 Barrington A (RI)
39 Livingston A
40 Westview B
41 High Tech C
42 Kellenberg A
43 Latin A
44 Del Norte A
45 Hinsdale Central A
46 Latin B
47 Barrington A (IL)
48 St Marks B
49 Uni Lab B
50 Darien A
51 DCC B
52 Cistercian B
53 Clark A
54 East Brunswick A
55 Woodford County A
56 La Jolla A
57 North Hollywood A
58 H-F A
59 Hanover A
60 Beavercreek B
61 Dublin Scioto A
62 Darien B
63 Eastside A
64 Wilton A
65 Mountain Lakes A
66 TMS A
67 East Brunswick B
68 Copley A
69 Johnson Central A
70 Daviess County A
71 Hunter B
72 Northmont A
73 Plano West B
74 Dunbar B
75 Dupont Manual A
76 TJ Classical A
77 Blazer A
78 Russell A
Anson Berns
Captain, Montgomery Blair HS '19

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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by matthewspatrick » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:55 am

We need someone to come up with a clever backronym so we can talk about GROGER ranks.
Patrick Matthews
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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by SirMrGuy » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:49 am

Generated Rankings Obtained from Game Examination and Review
(alternatively, for ARJUN, Appreciable Ranking Justifies my Unintelligent Negs)
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Cedar Drive MS '15
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chemistry is the devil incarnate but at least it's not biology

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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by jonathanshauf » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:53 am

Well, we're not quite in last.
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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by matthewspatrick » Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:52 pm

SirMrGuy wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:49 am
(alternatively, for ARJUN, Appreciable Ranking Justifies my Unintelligent Negs)
Image
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University of Pennsylvania 1989-94
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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by Thiccasso's Guernthicca » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:02 pm

I'm curious to see the results if A-sets were counted, as they are in HSQBRank (I don't believe MSNCT is). Would the rankings change significantly?
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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:20 pm

I include MSNCT.
Fred Morlan
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International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, co-owner
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
hsqbrank manager, NAQT writer (former subject editor), former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator, 2012 NASAT TD

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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by Not John John » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:58 pm

We chose not to include A-sets and MSNCT due to both a lack of resources and a disproportionately large impact of powers.
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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by Iamteehee » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:32 pm

While MSNCT and IS-A are accounted for in Morlan rankings, they have very little effect on the positions of teams in the rankings.
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Wayzata High School '19

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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by troyharris » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:07 pm

While MSNCT and IS-A are accounted for in Morlan rankings, they have very little effect on the positions of teams in the rankings"
Except they do when you look at a team like Belmont, who, at MIT without Cameron, still had a decent tournament, but then had a full team at PAQT the next week and beat Lexington (a short-handed version of Lexington, but still very good) twice and won the entire event. I totally get this isn't supposed to be any sort of official ranking system and you are trying to get creative with a different ranking methodology, but to not see a team as good as Belmont in the rankings at all shows a shortfall of omitting the A-sets.


















"
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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by Berniecrat » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:59 pm

Hello.

A lot of what you mentioned is true. Belmont is indeed a very good team that deserves a national ranking, and they are not including the ranking. Our main rationale asides from the additional stats we would have to enter, as stated before, is because the disproportionate effect powers would have.

Lower difficulty sets like SCOP Novice, A Sets, and MSNCT will tend to have the powers become more weighted then HS regular sets simply because of the difficulty. While more powers is a good thing from an outreach perspective and to get players started, it also skews our ranking to focus more on powers if that makes sense. Josh from the Pi-oneers ran a statistical analysis based on this and when lower difficulty sets are weighted, the effect of PPB and negs are diminished while powers play a larger role. Even when it is adjusted compared to the powers from an IS set, the effect is still increased.

Similarly, we felt that A-sets and other novice sets are not representative of skill on HS regular sets and above, which is the main purpose of this ranking. While unfortunately that would exclude Belmont for this round, we plan to release more updates to the rankings somewhat consistently and if they play sets at HS-regs and above and can pull up similarly impressive stats, they will get the recognition they deserve.

On the note of incomplete pictures, Georgia teams are underranked in this post and will likely be in future posts. Some of the Georgia tournaments don't have their stats posted, others like http://hsquizbowl.org/db/tournaments/5276/ have skewed PPB that includes bounceback making it impossible to include them in the rankings as there is no way to find out the "pure ppb". That being said, a player from Chattahoochee informed us that their unskwed PPB was 24.6. Along with their power and neg stats, William Groger ran the calculations and had that tournament been included with the 24.6 PPB, Chattahoochee would have been the #1 Groger Ranked team.
Arjun Nageswaran
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Stevenson '21

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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by whatamidoinghere » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:01 pm

Berniecrat wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:59 pm
On the note of incomplete pictures, Georgia teams are underranked in this post and will likely be in future posts. Some of the Georgia tournaments don't have their stats posted, others like http://hsquizbowl.org/db/tournaments/5276/ have skewed PPB that includes bounceback making it impossible to include them in the rankings as there is no way to find out the "pure ppb". That being said, a player from Chattahoochee informed us that their unskwed PPB was 24.6. Along with their power and neg stats, William Groger ran the calculations and had that tournament been included with the 24.6 PPB, Chattahoochee would have been the #1 Groger Ranked team.
Alongside the rankings for Chattahoochee, it feels like in general this set of rankings skews towards teams which have earlier seasons where they play regs-level tournaments, such as Ohio and Illinois. For example, in NorCal, our first tournament with one of the sets that do count (non-Novice, non-MSNCT), doesn't start until late October. Although these are fine preliminary rankings, I feel it is important to address that many of the circuits, including NorCal and Georgia, won't have a reliable ranking on this set of rankings.
Avinash Iyer
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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by Not John John » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:15 pm

whatamidoinghere wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:01 pm
Alongside the rankings for Chattahoochee, it feels like in general this set of rankings skews towards teams which have earlier seasons where they play regs-level tournaments, such as Ohio and Illinois. For example, in NorCal, our first tournament with one of the sets that do count (non-Novice, non-MSNCT), doesn't start until late October. Although these are fine preliminary rankings, I feel it is important to address that many of the circuits, including NorCal and Georgia, won't have a reliable ranking on this set of rankings.
This was already addressed.
ansonberns wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:35 pm
Only teams that have played a tournament this season have been included in the rankings, and thus they should be viewed more as a relative ranking of the teams listed than an absolute, overall ranking.
William Groger
MVS '21
2017 Middle School Player of the Year

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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by AKKOLADE » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:07 pm

Expecting any system to have an absolute ranking on October 13th isn't realistic.
Fred Morlan
PACE President, 2018-19
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, co-owner
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
hsqbrank manager, NAQT writer (former subject editor), former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator, 2012 NASAT TD

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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by ansonberns » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:57 pm

Updated rankings. Remember that they are still relative, if a team hasn't played anything, they will not appear here.
RANK TEAM GROGER SCORE
1 Hunter A 115.7140152
2 DCC A 113.7138717
3 Wayzata A 112.0763889
4 Beavercreek A 107.0625
5 Miami Valley A 105.8833333
6 Uni Lab A 105.8767505
7 High Tech A 102.3541667
8 Lexington A 101.6875
9 Chattahoochee A 101.5833333
10 Montgomery Blair A 101.4919872
11 Ithaca A 100.2708333
12 Stevenson A 100.2498565
13 IMSA A 96.85781106
14 Montgomery Blair B 96.8125
15 Auburn A 96.5661444
16 Wilmington Charter A 91.82765152
17 Troy A 90.3125
18 Solon A 89.34166667
19 Henderson County A 89.259705
20 Millburn A 89.01893939
21 St. Marks A 88.85416667
22 Colleyville Heritage A 88.19791667
23 Plano West A 87.40277778
24 Cistercian A 86.30952381
25 Parish Episcopal A 86.16666667
26 GNS A 85.10984848
27 Greens Farms A 84.15137167
28 Glasgow A 83.46387167
29 Phillips Academy A 82.63068182
30 Singapore American A 81.73333333
31 Allderdice A 80.84583333
32 Dunbar A 77.73053834
33 McLean A 77.69886364
34 Raleigh Charter A 77.63888889
35 High Tech B 77.44303834
36 Westview A 77.29166667
37 Greenhill A 77.125
38 Dorman A 76.45833333
39 BASIS McLean A 76.4375
40 George Washington A 76.31666667
41 Olympian A 74.38333333
42 Barrington A (RI) 73.35416667
43 Livingston A 72.56818182
44 Westview B 72.36111111
45 NCSSM A 71.84722222
46 Kellenberg A 71.59090909
47 Del Norte A 70.86666667
48 DCC B 70.06803834
49 Sandburg A 68.66803834
50 St. Joseph A 68.52637167
51 St Marks B 68.51388889
52 GPS A 66.08053834
53 High Tech C 65.35276056
54 Cistercian B 64.5
55 Latin A 64.01387167
56 Dupont Manual A 63.92637167
57 Clark A 63.875
58 Hinsdale Central A 63.784705
59 East Brunswick A 63.58143939
60 Woodford County A 63.4375
61 La Jolla A 63.3125
62 Latin B 62.85137167
63 North Hollywood A 62.73611111
64 Barrington A (IL) 62.71803834
65 Thomas S. Wootton 62.22083333
66 Hanover A 62.02083333
67 Montgomery Blair C 62
68 Atkins A 61.99305556
69 Richard Montgomery B 61.37083333
70 Uni Lab B 61.18053834
71 Beavercreek B 61.12916667
72 Dublin Scioto A 60.94583333
73 Darien A 59.422205
74 Eastside A 59.33035714
75 Winston Churchill A 59.15833333
76 Wilton A 58.85416667
77 Simon Kenton A 58.62637167
78 Mountain Lakes A 58.23333333
79 Danville A 58.072205
80 DCD A 57.58053834
81 H-F A 55.72637167
82 Middlesboro A 55.609705
83 TMS A 55.04464286
84 East Brunswick B 54.17083333
85 Copley A 54.08333333
86 Johnson Central A 53.97916667
87 Daviess County A 53.83333333
88 Darien B 52.890955
89 Hunter B 52.61666667
90 Northmont A 52.5
91 Plano West B 51.54761905
92 Dunbar B 49.22916667
93 Divine Child A 48.46387167
94 TJ Classical A 47.70833333
95 Blazer A 47.08333333
96 Russell A 40.83333333
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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by Berniecrat » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:09 pm

In order to save Anson the trouble of copying and pasting the rankings every time, and to stop this thread from being filled with huge walls of text, we will be posting all future rankings to grogerranks.wordpress.com
Arjun Nageswaran
Aptakisic '17
Stevenson '21

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Re: Groger Ranks 2018-19

Post by Berniecrat » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:33 pm

Dylan Bowman of Uni Lab has posted a nice write-up of the Illinois teams featured in the Groger Ranks here: https://grogerranks.wordpress.com/2018/ ... -analysis/. You too can get your hsqb analysis featured on the Groger Ranks website!
Arjun Nageswaran
Aptakisic '17
Stevenson '21

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