(Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

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(Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:50 pm

Discuss any specific questions from the set, including ones that you'd like to see posted, in this thread.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Jason Cheng » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:26 pm

For the question on Darwin's finches, I'm really not sure that's the wisest of answer lines. The other team buzzed at the end of tossup and said "finches" and were immediately ruled incorrect, although the question had already said "Galapagos." I have two problems with this:

1) I get that Darwin's finches are not actually finches, but I imagine there are a lot of people out there who, when answering a tossup in the heat of the moment, will go with the broader classification first. Here, they would think "so these are Darwin's finches" and say "finches," thinking they'll get some form of prompt. Instead, they'd be ruled immediately incorrect and wonder what was going on.
2) Since the end of the question already identifies "Galapagos," there's a very strong chance that players will just say "finches," and they wouldn't be that far off the mark, since the question has already clearly identified the subset that an answer of "finches" at the end falls into, even if Galapagos finches aren't finches

Overall, I see why the answerline is the way it is and shouldn't have to be changed, but I also predict a lot of dispute and confusion over it while it's actually being played.

I might go over more specific questions I noticed might have issues later, but this one is the freshest on my mind.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Eddie » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:53 pm

There were a couple of minor factual errors that I noticed - the Beethoven string quartets tossup gave the central theme of the Op. 131 as being in A minor, instead of A major.

The tossup on Penderecki named the opening piece as Polyphonia, instead of Polymorphia.

The Shostakovich tossup gives the key of his Cello Concerto No. 1 as E minor, rather than E-flat major.

On the Weber tossup, I negged at the bassoon concerto clue with Hummel. It was a completely deserved neg because I negged on the second sentence, but Weber and Hummel both wrote F major bassoon concertos that are standard in the repertoire. Weber's concerto is probably better-known than Hummel's, but nevertheless I think a disclaimer saying "He's not Hummel, but..." or something would be helpful to differentiate the two at game speed.

The music question on Paris had a confusing lead-in. The Grandioso marking only appears at the very end of the piece (the opening tempo is Allegretto grazioso), and the rhythm of the theme is "eighth, eighth, quarter," and not "quarter, quarter, eighth." Actually, I'm not sure how helpful that rhythm clue would be because a "short, short, long" pattern just seems like a really common thing.

The common-link myth tossup on nine had a clue about the Minotaur that I thought was somewhat misleading. To my knowledge, various sources give the sacrifices to the Minotaur as taking place every one, seven, or nine years (the opposing team negged this question with "seven" at that clue).
Last edited by Eddie on Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:56 pm

Thanks for noticing these errors - I've already made the suggested correction to the Weber tossup and I'll make the other changes, which were definitely serious oversights on my part that I should have checked. I think a lot of these occurred because I wrote them after initial reactions to pieces and forgot to check articles to verify what was going on. Glad they were caught for future mirrors.

EDIT: Here's a version of the Paris tossup which I think fixes the errors you were talking about:
Packet 3 wrote:5. The “Grandioso” theme that plays at the end of a piece titled for this city [emphasize] is a recurrence of that piece’s initial theme, marked Allegro grazioso, which features a short-short-long theme. That piece was given a “sluggish” premiere by Walter Damrosch. Thad Jones played “Pop Goes the Weasel” on a song titled for this city written by Count Basie. This city’s Hot Club promoted the (*) Gypsy Jazz movement, which included Django Reinhardt. Four taxi horns play in a George Gershwin piece titled for an “American in” - for 10 points - what city, where jazz played at the Moulin Rouge?
I know that the "short-short-long" theme almost certainly isn't unique, but I think it provides a clue that's nonetheless useful - for example, if you have that theme and you know that Walter Damrosch (the next clue) is well known for premiering Gershwin's pieces (even if you don't know the bit about the premier going badly) you can add that up and buzz with the correct answer and I think that'd be a perfectly legitimate demonstration of knowledge.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Muriel Axon » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:49 pm

Jason Cheng wrote:For the question on Darwin's finches, I'm really not sure that's the wisest of answer lines. The other team buzzed at the end of tossup and said "finches" and were immediately ruled incorrect, although the question had already said "Galapagos." I have two problems with this:

1) I get that Darwin's finches are not actually finches, but I imagine there are a lot of people out there who, when answering a tossup in the heat of the moment, will go with the broader classification first. Here, they would think "so these are Darwin's finches" and say "finches," thinking they'll get some form of prompt. Instead, they'd be ruled immediately incorrect and wonder what was going on.
2) Since the end of the question already identifies "Galapagos," there's a very strong chance that players will just say "finches," and they wouldn't be that far off the mark, since the question has already clearly identified the subset that an answer of "finches" at the end falls into, even if Galapagos finches aren't finches

Overall, I see why the answerline is the way it is and shouldn't have to be changed, but I also predict a lot of dispute and confusion over it while it's actually being played.
I think this is a situation where it's up to the discretion of the writer how generous they want to be. I'll just say that I think it's a poor idea to give a more general answer when you have every reason to believe it's a more specific one. If you really believe the answer is "finches," you're wrong. (In contrast, if you say "polynomials" for "symmetric polynomials," you're not wrong, you just gave a more general answer.) If you really believe, with near certainty, that the answer is Darwin's finches - which presumably the other team did - don't say "finches" and hope for a prompt! I can't see a situation where that's a good idea, since (1) why would anyone toss up "finches"? and (2) the question already said they were tanagers. In general, I think people have to use the "give a general answer and hope for a prompt" strategy sparingly. It's obvious that if someone said "birds," their answer wouldn't be accepted even though it's not wrong.

Again, writers can vary in how generous they choose to be; in at least one past question on "Darwin's finches," the writer included a specific prompt on "finches." But considering that my instructions were (1) more correct than the alternative, and (2) not, I think, overly punitive (see above), I'll continue to defend them.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Taiwan Wren-Babbler » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:56 pm

Could I see the Vermeer tossup?
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:01 pm

Packet 10 wrote:12. A disputed work by this artist was unusually executed on wood panel, and depicts a pale woman in a wide-brimmed red hat staring at the viewer. Blood gushes out of a crushed snake’s mouth, and a woman wearing satin garments gazes at a glass sphere suspended from the ceiling, in this artist’s Allegory of (*) Faith. A foot warmer rests on the ground as a woman with rolled-up sleeves pours liquid into a clay pot in this artist’s The Milkmaid. For 10 points, name this Dutch artist of Girl with a Pearl Earring.
Itamar wrote this; he's busy for a few days but I imagine he can give commentary on his cluing later.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Doga (Dog Yoga) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:28 pm

Muriel Axon wrote:
Jason Cheng wrote:For the question on Darwin's finches, I'm really not sure that's the wisest of answer lines. The other team buzzed at the end of tossup and said "finches" and were immediately ruled incorrect, although the question had already said "Galapagos." I have two problems with this:

1) I get that Darwin's finches are not actually finches, but I imagine there are a lot of people out there who, when answering a tossup in the heat of the moment, will go with the broader classification first. Here, they would think "so these are Darwin's finches" and say "finches," thinking they'll get some form of prompt. Instead, they'd be ruled immediately incorrect and wonder what was going on.
2) Since the end of the question already identifies "Galapagos," there's a very strong chance that players will just say "finches," and they wouldn't be that far off the mark, since the question has already clearly identified the subset that an answer of "finches" at the end falls into, even if Galapagos finches aren't finches

Overall, I see why the answerline is the way it is and shouldn't have to be changed, but I also predict a lot of dispute and confusion over it while it's actually being played.
I think this is a situation where it's up to the discretion of the writer how generous they want to be. I'll just say that I think it's a poor idea to give a more general answer when you have every reason to believe it's a more specific one. If you really believe the answer is "finches," you're wrong. (In contrast, if you say "polynomials" for "symmetric polynomials," you're not wrong, you just gave a more general answer.) If you really believe, with near certainty, that the answer is Darwin's finches - which presumably the other team did - don't say "finches" and hope for a prompt! I can't see a situation where that's a good idea, since (1) why would anyone toss up "finches"? and (2) the question already said they were tanagers. In general, I think people have to use the "give a general answer and hope for a prompt" strategy sparingly. It's obvious that if someone said "birds," their answer wouldn't be accepted even though it's not wrong.

Again, writers can vary in how generous they choose to be; in at least one past question on "Darwin's finches," the writer included a specific prompt on "finches." But considering that my instructions were (1) more correct than the alternative, and (2) not, I think, overly punitive (see above), I'll continue to defend them.
Quizbowl is a game, not a pure test of knowledge; prompt-bashing is definitely a legitimate and useful strategy. I also see nothing wrong with prompting on "finches"; I'm sure the majority of people who buzz and say "finches" would be able to pull Darwin after a prompt anyways. There's no use in penalizing people for demonstrating knowledge.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Muriel Axon » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:48 pm

supervillin wrote:Quizbowl is a game, not a pure test of knowledge; prompt-bashing is definitely a legitimate and useful strategy. I also see nothing wrong with prompting on "finches"; I'm sure the majority of people who buzz and say "finches" would be able to pull Darwin after a prompt anyways. There's no use in penalizing people for demonstrating knowledge.
Sure, if someone did prompt on "finches," I wouldn't bother to make a forum post about it. But I'm not sympathetic to the strategy of "I'll just say the most general thing conceivable and hope for a prompt" -- in this case, "finches" wasn't just wrong (none of the clues pertain to them), it wasn't even a sensible answer, and I do think players have to use some common sense while playing. Even if Darwin's finches were true finches -- in which case a prompt would be justified -- who could hear any of those clues and have reason to believe they applied to any other true finches?

(I'll note, preemptively, that while there are situations where it's okay to casually use the descriptor "finches" for Darwin's finches -- like the book, The Beak of the Finch -- these are exclusively situations where the context of Darwin's finches has already been established.)
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Doga (Dog Yoga) » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:05 am

Muriel Axon wrote:
supervillin wrote:Quizbowl is a game, not a pure test of knowledge; prompt-bashing is definitely a legitimate and useful strategy. I also see nothing wrong with prompting on "finches"; I'm sure the majority of people who buzz and say "finches" would be able to pull Darwin after a prompt anyways. There's no use in penalizing people for demonstrating knowledge.
Sure, if someone did prompt on "finches," I wouldn't bother to make a forum post about it. But I'm not sympathetic to the strategy of "I'll just say the most general thing conceivable and hope for a prompt" -- in this case, "finches" wasn't just wrong (none of the clues pertain to them), it wasn't even a sensible answer, and I do think players have to use some common sense while playing. Even if Darwin's finches were true finches -- in which case a prompt would be justified -- who could hear any of those clues and have reason to believe they applied to any other true finches?

(I'll note, preemptively, that while there are situations where it's okay to casually use the descriptor "finches" for Darwin's finches -- like the book, The Beak of the Finch -- these are exclusively situations where the context of Darwin's finches has already been established.)
In almost all other cases I think its fair to prompt on (within reason) any partial answers of nouns that are found in the answerline. I think this answerline is inherently misleading because (TIL) they aren't actually finches despite being called that. However, I'm not sure how many people are aware of this fact, and I think in the context that Darwin's Finches are taught in (AP Bio/adaptive radiation/galapagos/etc) this fact is glossed over. So for an answerline that isn't super common like this one, I think we should cut people a bit more slack. I could especially see some more inexperienced players (of which this set will have plenty) doing this, and I don't think we can dismiss someone for not using "common sense" - people think in different ways and for someone who hasn't seen an answerline like "Darwin's Finches" before it could be confusing at first.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Muriel Axon » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:04 am

Many thanks to the WUSTL team for noting that "Liv-Zempel" should be "Lempel-Ziv." This was just a dumb spoonerism on my part. It has now been corrected.

(For the record, the Darwin's finches tossup was left as-is for today's mirrors. I can defend this decision in more detail if anyone demands it, but you know, I'd rather save myself the effort otherwise.)
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:36 am

I've received feedback from a couple people that some of the bonuses seemed very difficult. Let me know what these are; I'd like to keep the set's difficulty relatively smooth. I'm very happy that new teams consistently broke 10 PPB on the set.

Also, if some of the hard parts seemed extremely hard, please point these out to me as well - I'd like to make sure people have a reasonable shot at a 30 on each bonus.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:43 pm

Fairly disappointed that the minotaur clue in the "nine" tossup wasn't changed (or, better, removed)--I guarantee no one playing the questions knows or cares which source said what time period, so including that makes it functionally ambiguous and technically not protestable. I don't think there's really a way to fix that short of saying "it's not one or seven", so you're probably better off just cutting it. (For the record, I also said seven at that point.)
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Make sure your seatbelt is fastened » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:52 pm

Auks Ran Ova wrote:Fairly disappointed that the minotaur clue in the "nine" tossup wasn't changed (or, better, removed)--I guarantee no one playing the questions knows or cares which source said what time period, so including that makes it functionally ambiguous and technically not protestable. I don't think there's really a way to fix that short of saying "it's not one or seven", so you're probably better off just cutting it. (For the record, I also said seven at that point.)
I take full responsibility - it was on my list of a couple of things to change that I never actually implemented. It'll be replaced for future mirrors. I apologize for screwing over anyone it affected.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Muriel Axon » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:52 pm

After the ACF Fall discussion on the "population size" question, I've decided to prompt on finches for Darwin's finches. In retrospect, it would have been a good idea to do that before today, but I didn't. Next week's mirrors will have the change.

Still, don't do dumb things like give the most general possible answer and expect to be prompted! It's like saying "whales" when the answer is "killer whales" -- not only doesn't it check out scientifically, it also doesn't make much sense as a strategy.

I've also made a bunch of changes based on typos and problems from the set that I found today. We would, of course, like to hear of any more you all have found.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Doga (Dog Yoga) » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:34 am

I would love to hear what people thought of my questions: the chem and physics in
round 8 through finals 2, transition states, carbonate, geochemistry bonus, india (science), gemstones bonus.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by vinteuil » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:52 pm

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:
Packet 3 wrote:5. The “Grandioso” theme that plays at the end of a piece titled for this city [emphasize] is a recurrence of that piece’s initial theme, marked Allegro grazioso, which features a short-short-long theme. That piece was given a “sluggish” premiere by Walter Damrosch. Thad Jones played “Pop Goes the Weasel” on a song titled for this city written by Count Basie. This city’s Hot Club promoted the (*) Gypsy Jazz movement, which included Django Reinhardt. Four taxi horns play in a George Gershwin piece titled for an “American in” - for 10 points - what city, where jazz played at the Moulin Rouge?
I know that the "short-short-long" theme almost certainly isn't unique, but I think it provides a clue that's nonetheless useful - for example, if you have that theme and you know that Walter Damrosch (the next clue) is well known for premiering Gershwin's pieces (even if you don't know the bit about the premier going badly) you can add that up and buzz with the correct answer and I think that'd be a perfectly legitimate demonstration of knowledge.
This is asking a fair amount to process at game speed. I think a better defense would be: Walter Damrosch is most famous for "association with Gershwin" in quizbowl—and there's only one famous Gershwin piece named after a city—but then it would have been nice to have the "this city" in the same sentence as Damrosch.

(In other words, I agree with Eddie that the first clue is basically doing nothing for the player. It's possible to have a very detailed description that's not thick enough to actually be buzzable.)
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:53 pm

Muriel Axon wrote:I think this is a situation where it's up to the discretion of the writer how generous they want to be. I'll just say that I think it's a poor idea to give a more general answer when you have every reason to believe it's a more specific one. If you really believe the answer is "finches," you're wrong. (In contrast, if you say "polynomials" for "symmetric polynomials," you're not wrong, you just gave a more general answer.) If you really believe, with near certainty, that the answer is Darwin's finches - which presumably the other team did - don't say "finches" and hope for a prompt! I can't see a situation where that's a good idea, since (1) why would anyone toss up "finches"? and (2) the question already said they were tanagers. In general, I think people have to use the "give a general answer and hope for a prompt" strategy sparingly. It's obvious that if someone said "birds," their answer wouldn't be accepted even though it's not wrong.
This statement just popped out at me. Notwithstanding that Professor Kothari is a gentleman and a scholar, he is not a quizbowl lawyer, and if he were one he should be disbarred on the basis of this legal advice. This is the precise opposite of the correct strategy under the Law of ACF Nationals 2013, which says that players who fail to read the question-writer's mind and/or are plagued by more knowledge than said writer should be negged.

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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by vinteuil » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:57 pm

The bonus part on "shards" in Finals 2 sounds like it's asking for something much more specific. I get that that's why it's not the easy part of the bonus, but it makes it super groan-worthy.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:01 pm

While I resent the insinuation that I clued Walter Damrosch because of a "quizbowl" association, instead of actually reading about the premiere in program notes, I would nonetheless be happy to replace the lead-in to the Paris tossup with alternative clues if I find some that are satisfactory. Suggestions are welcome.

I don't know if this affected anyone besides Columbia A but I'm told that Dvorak's Symphony No. 6 is sometimes called his Symphony No. 1 due to some ordering issues. I've put this in the answers to that bonus part.

And yeah, that Amazon bonus part could use some work. I meant to replace that but I never got around to it - I'll mark that.

The Samanid bonus ended up being a bit harder than I calculated - I thought more people had heard of the Battle of the Talas river, since it's one of the few instances that you get an actual battle between a Chinese army and a large empire to the west. Again, suggestions as to a better middle part are welcome if more folks think that should be toned down, assuming I don't come up with one myself.
Last edited by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea on Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by vinteuil » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:03 pm

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:While I resent the insinuation that I clued Walter Damrosch because of a "quizbowl" association, instead of actually reading about the premiere in program notes, I would nonetheless be happy to replace the lead-in to the Paris tossup with alternative clues if I find some that are satisfactory.
I wasn't insinuating that that was how you knew about, only that that was how you would expect other people to know it!
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Muriel Axon » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:32 pm

Tees-Exe Line wrote:It would be nice if the world worked in the idealized way that Professor Kothari dreamt up in his ivory tower, safe from the hostile fortunes that afflict those of us suffering under the tyranny of the Real World, but alas, it does not.
Given the state of the tenure-track job market these days, this is perhaps the only time I will ever be called "Professor Kothari."
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by 1.82 » Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:13 pm

Can I see the Zoroastrian tossup on India? I was frustrated to have a bunch of Persian names thrown at me and then get negged when I buzzed with "Iran". The Parsis are certainly worth asking about, but it seemed to me that this was the worst possible way to go about doing that.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:22 pm

Governor General's Foot Guards wrote:Can I see the Zoroastrian tossup on India? I was frustrated to have a bunch of Persian names thrown at me and then get negged when I buzzed with "Iran". The Parsis are certainly worth asking about, but it seemed to me that this was the worst possible way to go about doing that.
Round 4 wrote:9. Some members of a community from this country practice a mystical tradition founded by Nowroji Shroff called Ilm-e-Khshnoom. Businessmen from that generally affluent group sponsor dastur priests who conduct most navjot rituals in this country, where most temples tending the sacred atar flame are located. A religion from this country is (*) divided over whether women can achieve salvation. After Iran, this country is home to the second-most Zoroastrians, including the Parsi community. For 10 points, name this country, also home to most Jains.
ANSWER: (Republic of) India [or Bhārat Gaṇarājya]
As the rest of this tournament made clear (Persian poetry bonus, Samanid empire bonus) Persian is an important language that has been historically spoken in many places that aren't Iran, much like Sanskrit religious (and non-religious!) words show up in tons of places that are not India. I didn't want to put too many hard answers in the set and I didn't want to write another damn Zoroastrianism tossup so I figured instead of writing a tossup on Parsis I could write one on India instead. Going with "oh hey these words are Persian, I'll buzz with Iran" as a play strategy is not always going to work out and that's not something I have a problem with at all.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by armitage » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:06 pm

I liked the concept of that tossup. But,
Round 4 wrote:After Iran, this country is home to the second-most Zoroastrians.
is this right?
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:14 pm

That book seems to say that the U.S. has the third-most Zoroastrians. That still leaves India as #2 and Iran as #1, right?

EDIT: Missed the table below. The estimates for numbers vary widely, but I've generally read that Iran has more Zoroastrians, and I'd be inclined to suspect that a lot of Iranian Zoroastrians don't actually admit they practice their faith in public or even on polls, which means you'd get a systematic under-estimation of the number of Zoroastrians in Iran.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Tees-Exe Line » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:26 am

The question on Hicks erroneously claims that he introduced the notion of general equilibrium into English and that he invented the concept of elasticity of substitution (don't remember of the question specifically said "between capital and labor," but it doesn't matter either way). It is almost never the case the big, vague concepts in the social sciences were thought up by one person, so saying they were makes for a bad clue.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:36 am

I wouldn't be surprised if I messed up a question oriented towards "history of thought" in economics, since that's not where my main knowledge of the subject lies. Nonetheless:
Round 9 wrote:8. This economist showed that labor-saving devices do not reduce labor’s share of income by formally explaining the elasticity of substitution. This non-Jevons economist introduced Walrasian general equilibrium theory to English-speaking academia and showed that ordinary utility is sufficient for consumer theory in his book (*) Value and Capital. With Alven Hansen, this economist developed the IS-LM model. The cost of a bundle of goods is minimized in the “compensated” demand function named after - for 10 points - what British economist?
ANSWER: Sir John (Richard) Hicks
Is there a way to better phrase the clue or information that would make it better? Admittedly I haven't read Value and Capital but what I've read of it says that it's the first major English-language work on general equilibrium theory.

Also, with regards to your other comment, other sources I've read say that Hicks formally explained the notion of elasticity of substitution in 1932 - the tossup and the sources I read do not imply that he was the one who came up with the idea (I'm sure someone somewhere thought of some similar notion). Nonetheless, perhaps I should change that to clue his work with Allen instead? That would sort of lean more towards rewarding knowing simple association, but might remove confusion.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by jfuchs » Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:01 pm

In the Hofmannsthal bonus (round 10 maybe?), it sounded like the expected answer to the first part was Chandros instead of Chandos.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Make sure your seatbelt is fastened » Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:13 pm

jfuchs wrote:In the Hofmannsthal bonus (round 10 maybe?), it sounded like the expected answer to the first part was Chandros instead of Chandos.
My apologies; this has been fixed.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by vinteuil » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:52 pm

Ophir just reminded me of some errata in the music:

The first clue in the tossup on "piano" implies that Fidelio has a piano part, rather than Moscheles having made the piano arrangement for the vocal score.

The first few clues in the Petrushka tossup are not about the entire ballet (although that's not really much of a problem).

Tossup on flute uses "head-motif" to describe the opening of the single-movement work Density 21.5 (the term means a motive that recurs at the beginning of multiple movements of a piece).

I think the tossup on England claims that the Rondeau from Abdelazar has a harp, when it's for standard string orchestra with continuo. But I couldn't be sure, because the description is too vague to really point to anything. (Minus the error, the clue definitely applies to France!)

Tossup on Brahms 1 claims that the opening of the symphony is its "exposition"—it's an introduction (the winds have that theme in the exposition).
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:21 pm

Various errata pointed out to me by Ophir (in PM) and Jacob have been fixed in the set - in particular, the "England" tossup now (correctly) says "string orchestra and continuo" and some question re-arrangement has been done to not spoil the continuo part in the bonus previously in Packet 4. Thanks for the feedback.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by DumbJaques » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:23 pm

I'm generally loathe to make single-tossup posts, but the leadin in the "terrorism" tossup was egregiously terrible. I'm fairly certain it said "The Welsh School considers this concept to be socially constructed" or something closely equivalent. This clue is utterly content-free. The Welsh School is a constructivist school of security studies; they believe that EVERYTHING is socially constructed. I'd love to see more IR/poltical science in quizbowl since it's extremely underrepresented in the SS distribution, but this is basically the equivalent of writing a tossup on "forks" with the leadin "Thales believed these things were ultimately made of water."
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:32 am

DumbJaques wrote:I'm generally loathe to make single-tossup posts, but the leadin in the "terrorism" tossup was egregiously terrible. I'm fairly certain it said "The Welsh School considers this concept to be socially constructed" or something closely equivalent. This clue is utterly content-free. The Welsh School is a constructivist school of security studies; they believe that EVERYTHING is socially constructed. I'd love to see more IR/poltical science in quizbowl since it's extremely underrepresented in the SS distribution, but this is basically the equivalent of writing a tossup on "forks" with the leadin "Thales believed these things were ultimately made of water."
I'll cop to making this fuck-up since you're absolutely right. I made a mental note to check that lead-in sometime before the 11/14 mirror (since at that point I had written the tossup several months ago) but that didn't end up happening, probably because I didn't leave a comment on it in the documents. Sorry about that.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by DumbJaques » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:52 am

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote:
DumbJaques wrote:I'm generally loathe to make single-tossup posts, but the leadin in the "terrorism" tossup was egregiously terrible. I'm fairly certain it said "The Welsh School considers this concept to be socially constructed" or something closely equivalent. This clue is utterly content-free. The Welsh School is a constructivist school of security studies; they believe that EVERYTHING is socially constructed. I'd love to see more IR/poltical science in quizbowl since it's extremely underrepresented in the SS distribution, but this is basically the equivalent of writing a tossup on "forks" with the leadin "Thales believed these things were ultimately made of water."
I'll cop to making this fuck-up since you're absolutely right. I made a mental note to check that lead-in sometime before the 11/14 mirror (since at that point I had written the tossup several months ago) but that didn't end up happening, probably because I didn't leave a comment on it in the documents. Sorry about that.
Oversights happen, of course, but it's probably more useful to think about how the clue ended up being written. Writing styles differ, but it's hard for me personally to imagine writing a lead-in like this and no "checking" it. Or, I suppose, I'm just not sure what research process leads to this becoming a clue but not to an awareness of why it's problematic.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by vinteuil » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:03 am

Ike wrote:Having people identify JL Austin's home country isn't rather interesting, and questions asked about countries to the point of it becoming kind of crazy.
This is from the other thread, but the answerline for this question somehow doesn't include "England," which is what we said. (I know we would have won the protest but...come on.)
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by The Abydos Helicopter » Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:03 pm

Could I see the Cleruchies bonus set? I seem to recall two mistakes in the final part, in which Megara is called an Attic city - it's part of the modern region of West Attica, but it was founded by Corinthians, who were Dorians, rather than the Ionian/Attic Athenians, and was generally counted as part of the Isthmus - the borders of Attica lay between Megara and Eleusis, for which we have plenty of evidence of border conflict (e.g. https://classicalstudies.org/annual-mee ... %C2%B2-204)

Secondly I seem to recall it saying there were cleruchies planted in Megara itself, as opposed to on Salamis, which is usually thought of as the first cleruchy - I'm certain at no point Athens controlled Megara for long enough for cleruchies to be planted there

Thanks!
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Valefor » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:38 pm

Could I please see the tossup on "Methodist," as well as the bonuses on Remo Giazotto/Adagio and Ockeghem/Josquin? Thanks!
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:10 pm

Sorry for the delays; I'll get the requested stuff posted after Thanksgiving dinner.

My bad on the classics bonus. Ancient Greece is my worst area of classics (at least for now, since I just got this wonderful book on the economy of Ancient Greece that I am stoked to reads) so I'm not surprised I screwed the kleruchies bonus up. The phrase "Attic city" does seem misleading in all but the strictly geographic sense.

EDIT:
Packet 1 wrote:19. Answer the following about the colonies known as cleruchies [“KLER-uh-keys”], for 10 points each.
[10] Most early cleruchies were established by this Attic city, which led the Delian League and was led by Pericles.
ANSWER: Athens [or Athenai]
[10] Poor citizens could receive land by becoming colonists in cleruchies, thus gaining the status of zeugitai under the class system established by this Athenian leader, who created the Council of Four Hundred.
ANSWER: Solon
[10] Athens planted cleruchies to help control defeated cities such as this other Attic city, located opposite the island of Salamis. It was the home of Byzas, who founded the city of Byzantium.
ANSWER: Megara
So, the bonus says that Athens planted a cleruchy to help control Megara and doesn't say that it planted a cleruchy in Megara itself.

Jason's requests:
Packet 12 wrote:15. Howell Harris and Daniel Rowland led a revival of this sect in Wales in the late 18th century. The oldest black Protestant denomination is an offshoot of this sect founded by Richard Allen in Philadelphia. This is the largest Protestant sect which holds that God’s grace can be (*) earned or refused by anyone, a belief adopted from Jacobus Arminius. This sect originated as a revival of Anglicanism and was spread by Thomas Coke. George Whitefield created a Calvinistic offshoot of - for 10 points - what denomination founded by John Wesley?
ANSWER: Methodism
Packet 2 wrote:14. This composer created numerous oboe concerti, most notably a D-minor concerto from his Opus 9, 12 concerti a cinque. For 10 points each:
[10] Identify this Italian composer, one of whose works was the subject of an attempted reconstruction by Renzo Giazotto based on documents found in the Saxon State Library in Dresden.
ANSWER: Tomaso Albinoni
[10] Giazotto’s reconstruction of Albinoni’s work resulted in a piece in G minor titled for this tempo. A piece for string orchestra by Samuel Barber titled for this tempo was broadcast after Franklin Roosevelt’s death.
ANSWER: adagio [accept Adagio in G Minor; accept Adagio for Strings]
[10] The Adagio in G Minor is scored for violin, strings, and this form of musical accompaniment common in Baroque music, typically played by a harpsichord or other chordal instrument.
ANSWER: basso continuo [accept organ continuo; accept figured bass]
Packet 10 wrote:14. This composer’s music often made use of mensuration canons in works such as the Missa prolationum. For 10 points each:
[10] Identify this Franco-Flemish composer of the 15th century whose most famous student wrote a Deploration on his death.
ANSWER: Johannes Ockeghem
[10] This most famous student of Ockeghem, also a Franco-Flemish composer, created the motet Ave Maria...virgo serena and the Missa pange lingua.
ANSWER: Josquin des Prez [accept either underlined portion]
[10] This contemporary of Josquin wrote extensively in praise of his music. A hymn written by this religious leader titled “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God” is quoted in Felix Mendelssohn’s Reformation symphony.
ANSWER: Martin Luther
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Gautam » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:55 am

Packet 1 TU 13 on "Nitrogen": the leadin refers to a "compound". Please fix so that it does not say "compound", which nitrogen is not.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Ewan MacAulay » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:47 pm

Gautam wrote:Packet 1 TU 13 on "Nitrogen": the leadin refers to a "compound". Please fix so that it does not say "compound", which nitrogen is not.
Sorry that's my bad - was meant to say "molecule".
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Valefor » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:59 pm

Thanks for posting these. :) Just a couple of comments:
Packet 12 wrote:15. Howell Harris and Daniel Rowland led a revival of this sect in Wales in the late 18th century. The oldest black Protestant denomination is an offshoot of this sect founded by Richard Allen in Philadelphia. This is the largest Protestant sect which holds that God’s grace can be (*) earned or refused by anyone, a belief adopted from Jacobus Arminius. This sect originated as a revival of Anglicanism and was spread by Thomas Coke. George Whitefield created a Calvinistic offshoot of - for 10 points - what denomination founded by John Wesley?
ANSWER: Methodism
I buzzed on this with "African Methodist Episcopal" after "oldest black Protestant," and ended up getting anti-prompted (and eventually came up with just "Methodist"). You may wish to include a directive on how you would like readers to handle that specific answer for future sites of the set.
Packet 2 wrote:14. This composer created numerous oboe concerti, most notably a D-minor concerto from his Opus 9, 12 concerti a cinque. For 10 points each:
[10] Identify this Italian composer, one of whose works was the subject of an attempted reconstruction by Renzo Giazotto based on documents found in the Saxon State Library in Dresden.
ANSWER: Tomaso Albinoni
[10] Giazotto’s reconstruction of Albinoni’s work resulted in a piece in G minor titled for this tempo. A piece for string orchestra by Samuel Barber titled for this tempo was broadcast after Franklin Roosevelt’s death.
ANSWER: adagio [accept Adagio in G Minor; accept Adagio for Strings]
[10] The Adagio in G Minor is scored for violin, strings, and this form of musical accompaniment common in Baroque music, typically played by a harpsichord or other chordal instrument.
ANSWER: basso continuo [accept organ continuo; accept figured bass]
I'll admit it's slightly pedantic, but you might wish to consider adding the word "alleged" before "attempted reconstruction" in the A. part here. To the best of my knowledge, scholarly consensus is pretty much that the Adagio is Giazotto's own original work, and that the connection to Albioni was not genuine.
Packet 10 wrote:14. This composer’s music often made use of mensuration canons in works such as the Missa prolationum. For 10 points each:
[10] Identify this Franco-Flemish composer of the 15th century whose most famous student wrote a Deploration on his death.
ANSWER: Johannes Ockeghem
[10] This most famous student of Ockeghem, also a Franco-Flemish composer, created the motet Ave Maria...virgo serena and the Missa pange lingua.
ANSWER: Josquin des Prez [accept either underlined portion]
[10] This contemporary of Josquin wrote extensively in praise of his music. A hymn written by this religious leader titled “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God” is quoted in Felix Mendelssohn’s Reformation symphony.
ANSWER: Martin Luther
This I thought I misheard something on this, but it turns out it was there and I apparently just spaced during the question and missed it. Always nice to see people asking about Ockeghem, though. :)
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:26 pm

Vissi d'arte wrote:
Packet 12 wrote:15. Howell Harris and Daniel Rowland led a revival of this sect in Wales in the late 18th century. The oldest black Protestant denomination is an offshoot of this sect founded by Richard Allen in Philadelphia. This is the largest Protestant sect which holds that God’s grace can be (*) earned or refused by anyone, a belief adopted from Jacobus Arminius. This sect originated as a revival of Anglicanism and was spread by Thomas Coke. George Whitefield created a Calvinistic offshoot of - for 10 points - what denomination founded by John Wesley?
ANSWER: Methodism
I buzzed on this with "African Methodist Episcopal" after "oldest black Protestant," and ended up getting anti-prompted (and eventually came up with just "Methodist"). You may wish to include a directive on how you would like readers to handle that specific answer for future sites of the set.
Given that it's temporally impossible, and otherwise fairly improbable, for the first clue to apply to AME, the best solution may just be to rearrange the second sentence ("An offshoot of this sect founded by Richard Allen in Philadelphia is the oldest black Protestant denomination" seems to be the most internally pyramidal of the permutations of those words).
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:23 am

That's what I was thinking as well. Done.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Gautam » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:41 am

Auks Ran Ova wrote:
Vissi d'arte wrote:
Packet 12 wrote:15. Howell Harris and Daniel Rowland led a revival of this sect in Wales in the late 18th century. The oldest black Protestant denomination is an offshoot of this sect founded by Richard Allen in Philadelphia. This is the largest Protestant sect which holds that God’s grace can be (*) earned or refused by anyone, a belief adopted from Jacobus Arminius. This sect originated as a revival of Anglicanism and was spread by Thomas Coke. George Whitefield created a Calvinistic offshoot of - for 10 points - what denomination founded by John Wesley?
ANSWER: Methodism
I buzzed on this with "African Methodist Episcopal" after "oldest black Protestant," and ended up getting anti-prompted (and eventually came up with just "Methodist"). You may wish to include a directive on how you would like readers to handle that specific answer for future sites of the set.
Given that it's temporally impossible, and otherwise fairly improbable, for the first clue to apply to AME, the best solution may just be to rearrange the second sentence ("An offshoot of this sect founded by Richard Allen in Philadelphia is the oldest black Protestant denomination" seems to be the most internally pyramidal of the permutations of those words).
Actually I thought this set misplaced the pronoun a little more often than necessary. I remember coming across a few more instances like this, I'll see if I can comb through the set once again to find this.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Mnemosyne » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:27 am

There was a math bonus where the answer was "distance." Should "norm" have been acceptable? The other math people there agreed with me that it should have, but I never got to reread the full question. I recall it saying "the Euclidean this ...", which is begging for someone to say norm.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:23 pm

Packet 6 wrote:14. Answer some questions about the illustrious Kruskal brothers, for 10 points each:
[10] With W. Allen Wallis, William Kruskal developed a nonparametric version of this technique developed by Ronald Fisher. This method uses F-tests to consider whether three or more means are unequal.
ANSWER: ANOVA [or analysis of variance]
[10] The inventor of Kruskal’s algorithm, Joseph Kruskal, pioneered multidimensional scaling, which takes an input matrix of these quantities. The Euclidean kind of them is the length of a line segment connecting two points.
ANSWER: distances
[10] Martin Kruskal worked with Norman Zabusky to develop the theory of solitons by studying this doubly eponymous non-linear PDE used to model waves in shallow water.
ANSWER: Korteweg-de Vries equation [or KdV equation]
I'll let Shan speak to this.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Muriel Axon » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:37 pm

Mnemosyne wrote:There was a math bonus where the answer was "distance." Should "norm" have been acceptable? The other math people there agreed with me that it should have, but I never got to reread the full question. I recall it saying "the Euclidean this ...", which is begging for someone to say norm.
This answer wouldn't really make sense with the first part of the question, which is about NMDS. That said, I think questions should avoid penalizing people for not responding in accordance with a rather obscure clue they probably don't know, so I'll try to answer based on the second part alone. I think the basic distinction here is that you can take the norm of just one element, while a distance (constructed from a norm) needs two elements. (Admittedly, my understanding of this stuff has long gone stale.)

There are cues in here that should serve to make "norm" an implausible answer -- the "two points" part being the most crucial -- but since the Euclidean distance is based on the norm, I could see someone making a technical argument for "norm." How does "The Euclidean function of this kind, applied to two points, gives the length of a line segment connecting them" sound?
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by t-bar » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:54 pm

Muriel Axon wrote:There are cues in here that should serve to make "norm" an implausible answer -- the "two points" part being the most crucial -- but since the Euclidean distance is based on the norm, I could see someone making a technical argument for "norm." How does "The Euclidean function of this kind, applied to two points, gives the length of a line segment connecting them" sound?
Along the same lines, we answered "metric" for this question, which is again wrong for the first clue but correct for the second clue. Perhaps you could modify the first sentence to say "...which takes an input matrix of these measurements"---I can't say for sure, but I suspect that word choice would have helped us towards the desired answer in-game.
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Re: (Missouri Open 2015) Specific Question Discussion

Post by Mnemosyne » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:29 am

I think the issue can be fixed simply by adding a few words to the second sentence that include the word "metric." That would stop people from saying metric (which is a better wrong answer than norm) and hopefully guide them to the right answer. Maybe something like "The Euclidean function of this kind, applied to two points, gives the length of a line segment connecting them and is called a metric" or "The Euclidean function of this kind is a metric, which when applied to two points, gives the length of a line segment connecting them."
Nick Collins
C. E. Byrd '12 (Shreveport, LA)
Louisiana Tech '16, '17
University of Virginia

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