New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

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New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:27 pm

The New Trier Varsity Tournament will be December 20. The field as of right now is Auburn (2), Buffalo Grove (2), Carbondale, Cary-Grove, Crete-Monee (3), Fenwick (2), Hoffman Estates (2), Homewood Flossmoor, Lakes, Latin, Libertyville, Loyola (3), Maine South, Marian Central, Northmont (OH), Saint Ignatius, Saint Patrick, Springfield, Stevenson, Wheaton Academy, Wheaton North, WWS (2), and Winnebago. The field is still growing. If you thought you were coming but are not on the list, contact me and don't panic.

We also would love to have more help writing and editing questions, which is being done on a wiki. Contact me if you are interested. Again, don't panic.

EDIT: Teams added 12/4, bringing total from 18 to 22. Make that 32.
Last edited by Deviant Insider on Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:12 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by cornfused » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:22 pm

Need a moderator, Coach?
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by dtaylor4 » Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:16 pm

cornfused wrote:Need a moderator, Coach?
If needed, I may be able to make the trek up.

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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by JackGlerum » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:03 pm

Shcool wrote:Northmont (OH)
NON ILLINOIS TEAMS AT AN ILLINOIS TOURNAMENT. I AM TREMBLING IN MY BOOTS.
Shcool wrote:don't panic
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:12 pm

Moderators are welcome.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Siverus Snape » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:31 pm

Just so I don't tell my teammates the wrong thing when they ask me: who exactly is writing the questions at this point? I know that current New Trier players are involved, but are there any other notables with perhaps a little more experience?
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by jonah » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:56 pm

Writers currently include, for ten points each: Reinstein, Jeff Price, me, Robert Sido, Henry Thomas, Steve Server, Thomas Buley, Alex Slack, with possible contributions by some others.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by David Riley » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:05 am

Mr. Glerum's panic aside, I welcome the Northmont team and any other out of state competition! :party:
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by djones » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:46 am

We're not too much to be scared of on the national scene...we're pretty decent in Ohio but have never played Illinois format, so it will be new for us. I definetly wanted to get another tournament in during December to avoid a 6 week layoff. We had a long layoff last year and laid an egg when we started playing again. We should be able to win a few and hopefully make the playoffs.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by David Riley » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:53 am

Again, welcome!
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by jonah » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:04 pm

djones wrote:We're not too much to be scared of on the national scene...we're pretty decent in Ohio but have never played Illinois format, so it will be new for us. I definetly wanted to get another tournament in during December to avoid a 6 week layoff. We had a long layoff last year and laid an egg when we started playing again. We should be able to win a few and hopefully make the playoffs.
And we're glad to have you! But it's not Illinois format; except for computational questions, we'll be using mACF format.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by JackGlerum » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:16 pm

What's the distribution?

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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by djones » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:32 pm

Oh ok, we're very familiar with that format. Will teams be of 4 or 5?
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:38 pm

The distribution will be pretty close to IHSA distribution. It will be similar to the Kickoffs--for computational bonuses, all parts will be read and teams will have thirty seconds to calculate/confer. Bonuses will rebound. No negs or powers on tossups.

Teams will each have five students.

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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by BGSO » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:07 pm

Djones, your not the same Djones as is on the science olympiad forum?

Also, will it be power matching again this year?
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by djones » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:43 pm

Nope, not me. Science Olympiad and I are not friends :-)

(Due to: 1- my dislike of science and 2- the fact that it caused my captain (who did quiz bowl and SO) to miss the NAQT state championship 2 years ago)
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by jonah » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:13 pm

Never mind. I will post about the rules we'll be using shortly.
Last edited by jonah on Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:35 pm

The existence of power matching will depend on the number of teams. If the field size hits 24, we probably will do it. By past experience, having 17-23 teams does not work too well with power matching. If I had to guess now, I would guess that we will do it, but that is not a promise.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by jonah » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:16 am

Okay, sorry for confusion about the rules. What I posted above wasn't right and has been removed.

The official rules for the tournament are now available. Basically it's ACF-like but with bouncing-back bonuses, except computation works differently. Read the rules and let me know if you have any questions.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by jonah » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:19 pm

Distribution:

4/4 Literature/Language Arts
1/1 American literature
1/1 British literature
2/2 from {world literature, myth, grammar/vocabulary/speech}

4/4 Math (some computational; precise amounts not specified)
2.5/2.5 from {algebra, geometry, calculus, trigonometry}; morning rounds will have less calculus
1.5/1.5 from {general math, analytic geometry, computer science/technology}

4/4 Science
1/1 biology
1/1 chemistry
1/1 physics
1/1 general/earth science/astronomy/health

4/4 Social Science
1/1 American history
1/1 world history
2/2 from {government/current events, geography, religion/economics/other social science}

2/2 Fine Arts
1/1 from {art history, architecture, art theory/architecture theory}
1/1 from {music history, music theory, musicals/dance}

2/2 Miscellaneous/Interdisciplinary
with at least 1 question of interdisciplinary per packet, hopefully

Questions? Reinstein or me.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by JackGlerum » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:45 pm

ARGH YOU NEW TRIER PEOPLE AND YOUR DISTRIBUTION

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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:50 am

Wow, 2/2 history and 8/8 science per round! Awesome!
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Sir Thopas » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:25 am

I'll take this further.

Science=Literature+Myth+History+Fine Arts+"grammar and vocabulary"



DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE TO ANYONE?!
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Magister Ludi » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:51 am

Ukonvasara wrote:Wow, 2/2 history and 8/8 science per round! Awesome!
The only thing that could make this better is the 2/2 misc/interdisciplinary per round!
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by wd4gdz » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:58 am

Ukonvasara wrote:Wow, 2/2 history and 8/8 science per round! Awesome!
This sounds like the Billy Beyer vanity tournament.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:07 am

Sir Thopas wrote:I'll take this further.

Science=Literature+Myth+History+Fine Arts+"grammar and vocabulary"



DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE TO ANYONE?!
turn that there math into organic chemistry and yep yep yep
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by the return of AHAN » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:47 pm

ITT Non-Illinois people howl about the Illinois format for the 32,821st time.

I'm pretty sure the IL format was created by Rod Blagojevich, if that helps the discussion.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:19 pm

Woody Paige wrote:ITT Non-Illinois people howl about the Illinois format for the 32,821st time.
As I told JR Barry when he played the "you're not from here, yankee" card, I care about promoting good quizbowl everywhere.
Woody Paige wrote:I'm pretty sure the IL format was created by Rod Blagojevich, if that helps the discussion.
Hmm. How much would it cost me to have it changed, then?
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by AKKOLADE » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:22 pm

Distribution != format

And yes, with a distribution this bad, I am going to say it is bad.

This distribution is bad.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:26 pm

FredMorlan wrote:Distribution != format

And yes, with a distribution this bad, I am going to say it is bad.

This distribution is bad.
Oh, also, yeah, this.

This distribution is what's very bad.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by cornfused » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:33 pm

Wow, is that really the kind of distribution I played in HS? I remember it as being pretty much equally Math, Lit, History, Science, and "Other," which is certainly tolerable if you're gonna have Math as a category. But this has turned two of the history tossups into what used to be "other" - SS and, apparently, religion - and filled their gap with misc/interdisciplinary.

Wouldn't this distribution be better (not good, but better) for everyone?
4/4 history
4/4 lit
4/4 science
4/4 math
3/3 fine arts, soc sci, RMP, maybe geography here
1/1 misc/interdisciplinary/trash/current events/maybe geography here
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by cornfused » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:36 pm

I'm saying, if we're going to keep math in there and consider it separate from science, why not at least keep the rest from regressing? There's no reason to cut out a Big Four category - history - especially when what you're killing it for isn't fine arts or RMP or even SS but effectively "misc/interdisciplinary."
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by cornfused » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:46 pm

Unrelated note: this is going to be a surprise for some teams, as it differs for IL standard practice, doesn't it?
NT Varsity Rules wrote:Incorrect leading articles, including any leading articles supplied when the title actually has no leading article, will result in the answer being ruled wrong; e.g.. “A Scarlet Letter” and “The Great Expectations” are unacceptable.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by cornfused » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:46 pm

from IL standard, I mean.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by AKKOLADE » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:48 pm

Isn't that the opposite of the standard anywhere? Granted, my article-based rules knowledge has not been checked on recently.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by cornfused » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:48 pm

FredMorlan wrote:Isn't that the opposite of the standard anywhere? Granted, my article-based rules knowledge has not been checked on recently.
I thought so too, but that's actually copy-and-pasted from the official ACF rules.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by cornfused » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:50 pm

Shcool wrote:No negs or powers on tossups.
This has also changed.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by the return of AHAN » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:21 pm

IHSA 2008-2009 Terms and Conditions wrote: Breakdown of Questions at all levels
of the IHSA State Final Series: The sixty (60)
questions, thirty (30) toss-up and thirty (30)
bonus questions, for each match throughout
the state series will consist of the following
specific number of questions in each category:
1. Science: Six (6) toss-up and six
(6) bonus questions per match.
2. Mathematics: Six (6) toss-up
and six (6) bonus questions per match.
3. Social Studies: Six (6) toss-up
and six (6) bonus questions per match.
4. Literature/Language Arts: Six
(6) toss-up and six (6) bonus questions per
match.
5. Fine Arts: Four (4) toss-up and
four (4) bonus questions per match.
6. Miscellaneous: Two (2) toss-up
and two (2) bonus questions per match.
7. All toss-up questions involving
calculation must be labeled.
8. There will be a maximum of eight
(8) toss-up and eight (8) bonus questions
involving calculation per match.
Note: There will be two (2) toss-up
and two (2) bonus replacement questions from
each category for each level of competition.

Categories and Sub-categories for
Toss-up and Bonus Questions: Designate
“Major” and “Minor” sub-categories in which
written questions will be selected. The bold
sub-categories are the major areas that the
majority of the questions from that category
will be selected.
1. Science
Biology
Chemistry
Physics

General science
Earth science
Astronomy
Health
2. Mathematics
Algebra
Geometry
Calculus
Trigonometry

General math
Analytic geometry
Programming and Scripting
3. Social Studies
Government
Geography
U.S. History
World History

Economics
Current events
Social Science (Psychology,
Philosophy, Sociology)
4. Language Arts
U.S. Literature
British Literature
World Literature and Mythology

Grammar/usage
Spelling
Vocabulary
Speech
5. Fine Arts
Art History
Music History
(mostly but not exclusively from the Common Practice Period 1600-1900)
Music Theory
Art Theory
Artistic Dance (dancing legends ,
choreographers, tap, jazz, modern,
ballroom, ballet)
Musical Theater (Broadway, off-
Broadway, classic musical cinema)
Architecture
6. Miscellaneous
Journalism
Sports
Technology
Agriculture
Family Consumer Science
Driver’s Ed.
Industrial arts
Pop culture
Consumer Ed.
Interdisciplinary
I won't argue with those who pursue "good quizbowl". It's a noble goal. But what you see above is the expectation of an IHSA State Series match. If you're marketing a tournament to the 99% of IL coaches that DON'T troll this board, they generally want tournaments that prepare their kids for State Series.
Folks, I had people complain about the pyramidal questions I used at the Barrington (MS) last year because that's not what we have in our State Series. That said, I'm plowing ahead with it again. Will I lose some teams? We'll see, but I take exception to those who question Reinstein's commitment to good quizbowl just because his distribution approximates a State Series event.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by AKKOLADE » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:27 pm

I'm not questioning his commitment; I'm just saying that this distribution is notably bad. This may not exactly be news to people, but it's so bad that i feel it necessary to comment.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Tower Monarch » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:50 pm

I may be wrong, but I will enter here as an mACF player/writer/editor in the middle ground and say that the state series distribution here, if used properly could be ok, if not useful. If I read correctly (not sure I do), you could have a round of:
6/6 Science: 2/1 Biology, 1/1 Chemistry, 2/2 Physics, 1/1 Astronomy and 0/1 Earth Science
6/6 Math: 2/2 Calculus, 2/2 General Math (I'm assuming this could be mathematicians who also happened to do physics or something...), 1/1 Computer Science, 1/0 Geometry, and 0/1 Trigonometry -- Correct me if I'm wrong but there is only a max of computation right? So none of these have to be...
6/6 Social Studies: 2/2 U.S. History 1/1 European (count as World), 1/1 (actual) World, 1/1 Psychology or Economics, 1/1 Philosophy
6/6 Literature: 2/1 US Lit, 1/2 British Lit, 1/1 World Lit, 2/2 Mythology
4/4 Fine Arts: 2/1 Art History, 1/2 Music History, 1/1 Architecture
2/2 Miscellaneous: 1/0 Pop Culture then 1/2 non-Math, non-Science Interdisciplinary
Obviously the 5/5 math would hurt some people, but adjusted for 20 questions, that would be like 3/4 or 4/3, so if you don't have to do computation, it would probably be bearable as theory or mathematicians...
I don't know much about the format, but if the "state series" distribution were followed here, I at least would not be too upset
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by the return of AHAN » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:00 pm

FredMorlan wrote:I'm not questioning his commitment; I'm just saying that this distribution is notably bad. This may not exactly be news to people, but it's so bad that i feel it necessary to comment.
Fair enough. That's one of the things these boards are good for. It just seems like we chase our tail on this quite a bit.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Matt Weiner » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:16 pm

Woody Paige wrote:Fair enough. That's one of the things these boards are good for. It just seems like we chase our tail on this quite a bit.
I know, it's almost as if every Illinois tournament gets chastised for using a crazy distribution that makes everything but math calculation speed an irrelevant skill. What could possibly be the solution to this problem?!?!
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by David Riley » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:18 pm

Our distribution for our tournament this weekend is quitr a bit different from the IHSA State Series; I expect a lot of grumbling even though teams were warned ahead of time.
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Down and out in Quintana Roo
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:38 pm

David Riley wrote:Our distribution for our tournament this weekend is quitr a bit different from the IHSA State Series; I expect a lot of grumbling even though teams were warned ahead of time.
So... then why is it this way if a) you expect complaints from participants, and b) everyone else is ridiculing it?
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by dtaylor4 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:40 pm

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:
David Riley wrote:Our distribution for our tournament this weekend is quitr a bit different from the IHSA State Series; I expect a lot of grumbling even though teams were warned ahead of time.
So... then why is it this way if a) you expect complaints from participants, and b) everyone else is ridiculing it?
Mr. Riley is not running this tournament.

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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by David Riley » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:08 pm

Yes, I was referring to our frosh/soph tournamemt. But to answer your questions, 1) we spelled it out in the invitation that we would be using NAQT tossups--hence much less math and generally more pop culture than Illinois' format and 2) for the greater good. :smile:
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Member, PACE, 2012 -

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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Deviant Insider » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:13 pm

This tournament is now full. See the first post for a list of teams. It will be power pairing in the morning for five rounds.
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Deviant Insider » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:28 am

A schedule is now posted on our website.

We are hoping that the predicted snowfall does not impact our tournament. It is supposed to end around noon Friday and is supposed to be heaviest to the North, whereas teams traveling a long distance generally are coming from the South. As of right now, everything is on.
David Reinstein
Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by BGSO » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:37 pm

Any line-up changes with the weather getting more and more severe?
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Re: New Trier Varsity 12/20 (IL)

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:56 pm

I would like to propose a rule that nobody should discuss changing their plans until probably 12 hours before a tournament if there's bad weather involved since every single time a team drops Friday for snow, there isn't really any snow on Saturday morning.
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