Bad Negs Again

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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by at your pleasure » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:23 pm

From an old IS-A set:

"There were seven of them..." *BUZZ*
"Crusades"
Out of curiosity, what was the answer?
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by warpoet » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:24 pm

Lincoln-Douglas debates
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Salt Lake Dream » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:59 pm

Today at practice, on an old A-set:

Given: Small intestine
Answer: Javelin
Whenever "Falkland Islands" is the answer, you know that you're supposed to say "Islas Malvinas" because they truly belong to Argentina.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by warpoet » Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:10 pm

brezhnev wrote:Today at practice, on an old A-set:

Given: Small intestine
Answer: Javelin
Something like, "The Women's is 6 feet..."?
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by at your pleasure » Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:50 pm

It was men's/women's weights, then a clue about cord grips/heads, then a clue about the length. I think the buzz happened around heads/length.
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Nine-Tenths Ideas » Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:41 pm

Several things from both practice and Del. Fall Open:
BLAH
Nothing but good old fashioned bad recall.

BLUH

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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by I'm a goff (in case you couldn't tell) » Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:47 pm

Johannes Climacus wrote:Several things from both practice and Del. Fall Open:
Since Delaware Fall Open was run on an NAQT set, it probably isn't wise to post answers from that set.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Nine-Tenths Ideas » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:11 pm

A.F. wrote:
Johannes Climacus wrote:Several things from both practice and Del. Fall Open:
Since Delaware Fall Open was run on an NAQT set, it probably isn't wise to post answers from that set.
Aaaaaand I am an idiot.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by BGSO » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:39 pm

I'm starting this one off with saying that both I and the teammate who negged are Jewish...

Given: Amy Winestein
Answer: Amy Winehouse

Me: after we all realize what he said " She's not Jewish"

EDIT: Apparently Amy Winehouse is jewish...
Last edited by BGSO on Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by pray for elves » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:28 pm

BGSO wrote:I'm starting this one off with saying that both I and the teammate who negged are Jewish...

Given: Amy Winestein
Answer: Amy Wine House

Me: after we all realize what he said " She's not Jewish"
...She is Jewish.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Sir Thopas » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:40 pm

Hilarius Bookbinder wrote:...She is Jewish.
Somebody won't be buried among the other Jews!
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by BGSO » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:57 pm

Omg your right, she is jewish, wtf
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Siverus Snape » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:41 pm

At New Trier Varsity, I reflex-negged with The Grand Inquisitor for the Bhagavad Gita.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by at your pleasure » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:07 pm

How'd that happen?
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by dtaylor4 » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:08 pm

Anti-Climacus wrote:How'd that happen?
As the writer of said tossup, I'd like to hear about this as well.

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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Siverus Snape » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:57 am

The beginning clues were relatively non-specific (I imagine you didn't want someone saying, "This sounds Indian. It must be..."), so I guess they didn't stick in my head. It was a tight match, so when I heard "part of a larger work," I reflex-buzzed thinking "Grand Inquisitor," then realized that the question mentioned 18 chapters and some other things. That neg was devastatingly bad for me (I've memorized some parts of the Bhagavad Gita in Sanskrit).

Edit: After looking back at the question set, here's what really happened.
"It is eighteen chapters long and is found within the 6th book of a much larger work. *buzz*"
It turns out the Grand Inquisitor is actually in the fifth book of The Brothers Karamazov; either way, it still is only one chapter long.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Sir Thopas » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:15 am

Siverus Snape wrote:Edit: After looking back at the question set, here's what really happened.
"It is eighteen chapters long and is found within the 6th book of a much larger work. *buzz*"
It turns out the Grand Inquisitor is actually in the fifth book of The Brothers Karamazov; either way, it still is only one chapter long.
That's a pretty terrible lead-in!
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by dtaylor4 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:40 pm

Sir Thopas wrote:
Siverus Snape wrote:Edit: After looking back at the question set, here's what really happened.
"It is eighteen chapters long and is found within the 6th book of a much larger work. *buzz*"
It turns out the Grand Inquisitor is actually in the fifth book of The Brothers Karamazov; either way, it still is only one chapter long.
That's a pretty terrible lead-in!
I agree. In the original tossup I wrote, I had a similar clue as the giveaway (FTP, identify this text, the eighteenth chapter of the Mahabharata.)

EDIT: Nevermind.

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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:38 pm

That was my edit. In the original question, Mahabharata was acceptable for about the first half of the question, which I didn't really like. I also didn't like the giveaway, which Donald just quoted, since I don't think it is correct. So I gave it a lead-in that was unique and that I thought would only lead to knowledgeable people buzzing in. It did lead to a knowledgeable person buzzing in during that match, but he gave the wrong answer. However, that was his own fault.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by dtaylor4 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:45 pm

Shcool wrote:That was my edit. In the original question, Mahabharata was acceptable for about the first half of the question, which I didn't really like. I also didn't like the giveaway, which Donald just quoted, since I don't think it is correct. So I gave it a lead-in that was unique and that I thought would only lead to knowledgeable people buzzing in. It did lead to a knowledgeable person buzzing in during that match, but he gave the wrong answer. However, that was his own fault.
David, get your facts straight. For the first half of the question I wrote, I instructed the reader to *prompt* on Mahabharata, as no clues specifically ruled out to the Gita.

For clarity, this is the question I wrote, with pronounciation guides removed:
This work recommends the path of devotion, or bhakti-yoga, for those who choose to worship a personal god, since eventually the devotee will choose to perform actions for that god. It claims that one goes to heaven for as long as one's punya is not used up, but that the ultimate goal is moksa. Stemming from one figure's initial decision to not fight(*) his own relatives, the backdrop of it is a conversation between Arjuna and his charioteer, Krishna. FTP, identify this text, the eighteenth chapter of the Mahabharata.
ANSWER: Bhagavad-Gita [prompt on Mahabharata until (*), do not accept afterwards, as the Bhagavad-Gita is part of the Mahabharata]

The lead-in in the final version of the tossup is a bad lead-in because a) it's trivial compared to the rest of the clues, and b) once you get "It's part of another work" and "It's Indian," the number of players who could lateral that is greater than the number of people who should buzz on the second line of a good tossup.

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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:02 pm

My mistake on the prompting rather than accepting, but I believe that there is more than one book that recommends bhakti-yoga and mentions punya and moksa. I also believe that a lot of Hindu religious works are parts of larger works, since the Mahabharata, Upanishads, and Vedas each contain lots of sections.

EDIT: I am going to be without computer for the next few days, so if Donald or anybody else has a half-decent response to this post, then I've lost the argument. I may have lost it already.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by dtaylor4 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:45 pm

I'm stupid for not noticing this. Not only is the lead-in you put in a bad clue, it's factually incorrect. According to the source I used for the entire tossup, the Gita is only one chapter (the eighteenth chapter, as noted in the original tossup.) For the sake of disclosure, my source was The Eternal Self and the Cycle of Samsara, the primary text used in my course on Asian Mythology.

There may be more than one text that recommends bhakti-yoga. That is why I included the personal god condition in the clue. The Gita also recommends the other two yogas (jnana - knowledge, karma - action) under different conditions for different reasons, as no one path is given special treatment.

Also, the Upanishads and Vedas do have other sections. A search of the QBDB (thanks, Jerry) reveals that the Atharvaveda was tossed up at Gaddis and was the hard part in a bonus at 2006 Regionals. Also, the Rig Veda has been an answer at PACE NSC at least twice. Given the importance and uniqueness of such individual parts of larger texts, I think that they are certainly able to be asked about.

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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by at your pleasure » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:19 pm

So, to wrap this up:
More people should write questions on Indian stuff, so Indian-sounding names don't create transparency(As in "military-sounding historical event. Indian name. BUZZ. Sepoy Mutiny. FIFTEEEEEEEN). Also, chapter number/postion of work in larger text makes a terrible clue.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:05 pm

Anti-Climacus wrote:Also, chapter number/postion of work in larger text makes a terrible clue.
That's a point I'd like to make: does including that stuff actually increase conversion beyond where it'd be if you say "it's part of the M; FTP name this conversation between Arjuna and Krishna?" I sort of feel that if you don't know that it's a conversation between Arjuna and Krishna, you shouldn't get the tossup--and if people can't get it off that easiest nontrivial clue, then the tossup subject is too hard (and I don't think it is).
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by dtaylor4 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:27 pm

Anti-Climacus wrote:So, to wrap this up:
More people should write questions on Indian stuff, so Indian-sounding names don't create transparency(As in "military-sounding historical event. Indian name. BUZZ. Sepoy Mutiny. FIFTEEEEEEEN). Also, chapter number/postion of work in larger text makes a terrible clue.
Aren't there other notable Indian events that come up in quizbowl, i.e. the Battle of Plassey? Also, I agree with you about the chapter clue, which is why I put it at the end. I don't like giveaways that are like "FTP, identify this Hindu text." I wanted to put some sort of clue there, so I included that it was part of the Mahabharata.

EDIT: I kan spel gud.
Last edited by dtaylor4 on Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by JackGlerum » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:34 pm

When we played Auburn, Zahed's Aristotle for John Winthrop neg was pretty epic.

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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Homer Plessy » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:37 pm

dtaylor4 wrote:the Battle of Plessy?
I believe you overdramatize the good Mr. Tourgee's foray into the legal system on my behalf. Perhaps you mean Plassey?

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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Siverus Snape » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:42 pm

dtaylor4 wrote:I'm stupid for not noticing this. Not only is the lead-in you put in a bad clue, it's factually incorrect. According to the source I used for the entire tossup, the Gita is only one chapter (the eighteenth chapter, as noted in the original tossup.)
Actually, Reinstein was right. The Gita is divided into 18 chapters and is included in the Bhishma Parva (the sixth section) of the Mahabharata. Obviously, there's some ambiguity about the word "chapter," but I'm pretty sure that the Gita isn't the eighteenth anything of the Mahabharata.

Starting the question with "Part of the Bhishma Parva, this work..." would have solved most of the problems of both versions of the question. The problems that remain (some ambiguity/non-specificity, a lack of concrete detail) are probably a function of Donald understandably not having firsthand knowledge of the source and Donald trying to keep the length of the question down.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by dtaylor4 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:47 pm

Siverus Snape wrote:Starting the question with "Part of the Bhishma Parva, this work..." would have solved most of the problems of both versions of the question. The problems that remain (some ambiguity/non-specificity, a lack of concrete detail) are probably a function of Donald understandably not having firsthand knowledge of the source and Donald trying to keep the length of the question down.
Could you clarify what you mean by "source"? If you're referring to the Bhagavad Gita, I concede the point, as I have not read it. If you are referring to the work I cited as my source, then I must disagree.

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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Siverus Snape » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:53 pm

I meant the Bhagavad Gita, definitely.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by dtaylor4 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:55 pm

Siverus Snape wrote:I meant the Bhagavad Gita, definitely.
I figured. I may actually read the Gita at some point, but indeed I have not yet.

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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by wexs883198215 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:59 pm

Practice today on UIUC Early Bird 2005

...Something about Holy Roman Emperor Charles V... condemned Luther...Protestant Reformation...some year in 1500s

Frequently negging teammate buzzes
I say for God's sake don't guess Nicaea because that is many centuries off
Teammate proceeds to guess Nicaea and have an argument with every person in the room about the date of the Council of Nicaea

Answer: Council of Trent
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by kayli » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:40 am

In practice:
Moby Dick was this animal...
*Buzz*
Narwhal.

Edit: This may have been on a worksheet. Nevertheless...
Kay, Chicago.

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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by warpoet » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:03 pm

Last year on some old IS set, I gave comets for snowflakes
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by the return of AHAN » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:29 pm

From middle school practice today:
"Table salt is often fortified with this element[BUZZ]"
Pepper
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:35 pm

Woody Paige wrote:From middle school practice today:
"Table salt is often fortified with this element[BUZZ]"
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:25 pm

Practicing HSAPQ set #2 today:


A poem about this place urges the reader to “arise with me, and be born.” For 10 points each:
[10] Name this place whose “Heights” name the seminal poem from Canto General.

"Uh... Brooklyn?"

ANSWER: Macchu Picchu [accept “The Heights of Macchu Picchu”]
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Angry Babies in Love » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:28 pm

In practice from a 2006 NAQT set:
"...Mistakenly appeared on many posters along with Osama Bin Laden..."
me: "Zacarias Moussaoui?"
answer: Bert (from Sesame Street)
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Nine-Tenths Ideas » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:01 pm

Given: The Origins of Totalitarianism
Correct: The Milgram Experiment
After a leadin about being inspired by Eichmann at the Nuremberg Trials. Sort of understandable- I mixed up Origins with the Banality of Evil and ran with it.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by kayli » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:26 pm

At Dorman:
Given: Andrew Lloyd Webber
Correct: Pope Benedict XVI
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Theory Of The Leisure Flask » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:50 pm

At Gunpei Yokoi this past summer:

Given: Andy Goff
Answer: Andy Goss

What makes it so bad: Dan Goff was on the opposing team.
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by BMahaffeySJHS » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:06 pm

At Dorman last weekend:

Given: The Red Scare
Correct: Rubella
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Sonic the Hedgehog and the Fox » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:51 pm

kldaace wrote:At Dorman:
Given: Andrew Lloyd Webber
Correct: Pope Benedict XVI
It was the cats thing, right?
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by the return of AHAN » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:00 am

Mike,
Refresh my memory on the rules here, can I post bad answers that are listed on the page (from a vendor) as correct? Or do the negs have to be "player-powered," if you will?
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Captain Sinico » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:18 am

Woody Paige wrote:Mike,
Refresh my memory on the rules here, can I post bad answers that are listed on the page (from a vendor) as correct? Or do the negs have to be "player-powered," if you will?
Uhm... I guess bad wrong answers is okay. The point of the thread isn't for that, though; maybe a new thread is in order ("Wrong Right Answers?")

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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:21 am

Meant to post this a while ago:

at ACF Winter -
Given: Stanford Prison Experiment
Answer: Malice in the Palace (the Ron Artest brawl)

Next tossup: Philip Zimbardo
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by master15625 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:27 pm

Friend from a while ago

given: william churchill
answer: winston churchill

Me, today

given: winston churchill
answer: king kameheameha I
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

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Down and out in Quintana Roo
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Location: Camden, DE
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:56 pm

Practice today on an old packet.


Given: Human and Wolf
Answer: Plants and Fungi


See if you can guess why a student legitimately thought his answers might be right.
Mr. Andrew Chrzanowski
Caesar Rodney High School
Camden, Delaware
CRHS '97-'01
University of Delaware '01-'05
CRHS quizbowl coach '06-'12
http://crquizbowl.edublogs.org

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cornfused
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by cornfused » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:31 pm

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:See if you can guess why a student legitimately thought his answers might be right.
The two parts that make up a lycan, I take it. One of my teammates had a similar wrong bonus answer the other day.
Greg Peterson

Northwestern University '18
Lawrence University '11
Maine South HS '07

"a decent player" - Mike Cheyne

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Down and out in Quintana Roo
Auron
Posts: 2907
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:25 am
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Re: Bad Negs Again

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:42 pm

Ha, nice. I feel better knowing it was done somewhere else too...
Mr. Andrew Chrzanowski
Caesar Rodney High School
Camden, Delaware
CRHS '97-'01
University of Delaware '01-'05
CRHS quizbowl coach '06-'12
http://crquizbowl.edublogs.org

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