Illinois '08-'09

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:53 pm

If it's only 12 team's I'd imagine a full round robin is in order.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:00 am

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:If it's only 12 team's I'd imagine a full round robin is in order.
I wish. I think it's something lame like 8 total with 5 guaranteed.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by rjaguar3 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:37 am

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:If it's only 12 team's I'd imagine a full round robin is in order.
11 Illinois-format rounds would cause the tournament to run to 8:00pm.

It's the format's fault.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:45 am

It will be PACE format, which is also long.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:49 am

Tiger Bowl was an 11 round long tournament on this exact set that if I recall correctly was done by 5.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:28 pm

Unfortunately, the 10-12 round tournaments that have been run in Illinois recently have run into some serious lateness problems, and we really don't want that to be the case. Provided it's okay with the Loyola people, I don't see why we can't play one or two post-tournament rounds for fun, considering we've paid for the packets. This would probably be the perfect time to do that players v. moderators/coaches/what have you game.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Dan-Don » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:59 pm

Does anyone know when the Seeding Meetings commence/end?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:57 pm

The Seeding Meeting times are set by the hosts. They should all be over by now, though. I have nothing to report, since I didn't attend one. (My co-coach Ms. Gerhardt did.)
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by mlaird » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:32 pm

The Maine South Sectional:

1. New Trier
2. Loyola
3. Maine South
4. Fenwick
5. OPRF
6. St. Ignatius (I think?)
7. Maine East
8. Schaumburg

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:29 am

Huskie Bowl stats are up in the tourney thread. If you played for Auburn A, Byron, Lisle, Maine South, or St. Viator, check out the stats post because there are some missing stats you can help us with.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:31 pm

Loyburn is considering two schedules. The morning will consist of five round robin matches in two divisions. If the morning moves quickly, they would finish out the round robin in the afternoon. If not, then they would use some form of playoff divisions.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:49 am

What's this about Maine South taking down Loyola in the Bloodstone Brawl?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by cornfused » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:43 pm

styxman wrote:What's this about Maine South taking down Loyola in the Bloodstone Brawl?
Whaaaat?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:09 pm

Sad but true.....we had an early lead, but Andrew was on fire last night. I should point out that this was IHSA distribution, and we are math impaired, as you know....final score was something like 365-320. Maine South was and is a worthy adversary.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:48 pm

At Loyburn, Auburn, New Trier, and Carbondale had a circle of death that was decided by points per game--they finished in that order.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by jakestouffer » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:26 am

I would like to congratulate everyone associated with the Loyburn invite yesterday for hosting a wonderful tournament. The PACE format is a really exciting format, and I hope that more teams in Illinois get a chance to play with it in the near future.

My team being the weakest there (by far, I'd say!) was both a humbling experience and an eye-opening one. Not to demean our conference or the IHSA format (cough) but there was SUCH a high level of competition that my kids were shell-shocked from the get-go. The positives will hopefully outweigh the negatives in the long run, but I think that my kids can see that we have improved as the season has gone along.

Do we match up with the top teams in the state? Nope. But I want to thank every team that we played for being great competitors and not pulling too many punches throughout the match. I especially want to thank Auburn for the professionalism they displayed during our match. These kids are a class act, period. Also a big thank you to Linda Greene, Bruce Fitzgerald, and David Riley for helping me with suggestions for my team.

And if you ask me (which no one does) I think that pyrimidial questions are the way to go. And my team would only get better by having them read all of the time. A wider base of knowledge is always better than a narrow one.

Take care, all!

Jake

EDIT: Thanks for the heads up!! They showed professionalism!! Early morning+sinus meds=bad news bears.
Last edited by jakestouffer on Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by cornfused » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:27 pm

jakestouffer wrote:gamesmanship
I'm pretty sure that's not the word you want, Jake, but it's absolutely great to see a team that's new to this stuff falling in favor of pyramidal questions and, well, good rules. If you need any more suggestions on how to help your team improve, here's the right place.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by mlaird » Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:35 pm

Stats for Loyburn '09 are now posted. Thanks for a great tournament. I don't think there has been a tournament with so many teams at this level of competition in IL in a long time. Special thanks to Carolyn Gerhardt from New Trier with her help on stats in the afternoon.

The PPG and PPTUH are slightly off for individuals, since I simplified stat keeping by splitting the rounds into 1/3s instead of typing 6/22 and 8/22 for the different size halves. This means that almost everyone who subbed out at some point has a different number of TUH than they actually heard. It's pretty close to what it should be, however. Let me know of any glaring statistical errors that I missed.

EDIT: To explain what happened with Loyola B, C and Richmond-Burton: Richmond-Burton had let the TDs know previously that they would have to leave early, and so they left during lunch, and Loyola C was rolled into Loyola B in order to preserve the Round Robin.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Geringer » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:48 pm

mlaird wrote:I don't think there has been a tournament with so many teams at this level of competition in IL in a long time.
The field at Loyburn was a cut above any other tournament I've ever played in. Never before have I had the chance to be destroyed and demoralized by Auburn, New Trier, Carbondale, Stevenson, and Loyola on the same day. If BG had been there, it would have been more horrific for us. Dan's going to kill me for saying all this, but you guys are the real deal.

On a side note, did the Religion questions seem DON'T TALK ABOUT SPECIFIC QUESTIONS FROM THIS SET --the mgmt

(Don't get me wrong, the questions were great altogether. Props to the tournament directors for the great day and the copius amounts of pizza. First post, too. :party:)
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JohnAndSlation » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:04 pm

SaveComputationalMath wrote:redacted
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember that being terribly unusual. I actually don't remember getting much religion that DON'T TALK ABOUT SPECIFIC QUESTIONS FROM THIS SET --the mgmt
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:18 pm

Well, usually when it comes to questions with as much quality and depth as these, there's plenty of DON'T TALK ABOUT SPECIFIC QUESTIONS FROM THIS SET --the mgmt when it comes to the religion questions. I can't say without looking at the questions whetherDON'T TALK ABOUT SPECIFIC QUESTIONS FROM THIS SET --the mgmt, but it would be unusual if it were the case.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Dan-Don » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:27 am

jakestouffer wrote:I especially want to thank Auburn for the professionalism they displayed during our match. These kids are a class act, period.
I'd like to extend that to every team at the tournament. All the teams that destroyed us did so with courtesy and respect. Thank you.
SaveComputationalMath wrote:The field at Loyburn was a cut above any other tournament I've ever played in. Never before have I had the chance to be destroyed and demoralized by Auburn, New Trier, Carbondale, Stevenson, and Loyola on the same day. If BG had been there, it would have been more horrific for us. Dan's going to kill me for saying all this, but you guys are the real deal.
Jeff, why would I kill you for saying that? We got absolutely shellacked on Saturday. When Siva, Ben, Tony, Zach, and Joe are on, they're on. Period.
Save ComputationalMath wrote:On a side note, did the Religion questions seem DON'T TALK ABOUT SPECIFIC QUESTIONS FROM THIS SET --the mgmt

(Don't get me wrong, the questions were great altogether. Props to the tournament directors for the great day and the copius amounts of pizza. First post, too. :party:)
I'm glad to see you make your first post, Jeff. (Jeff is one of my Viator teammates.) Not so glad to see you've already gotten in trouble with the admins. I guess these questions haven't been cleared for discussion yet, eh?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:53 am

I don't know what was said, but my only problem with religion questions are that they might punish someone for having too much knowledge. When I approach Islam questions, sometimes I have to put myself in the shoes question writer, especially when the clues are slightly misleading, but only to an adherent. I've seen at least one other person express this concern. I guess there's no way to fix this other than more careful editing.

I concur with everyone else that the field and the tournament in general were both superb. The question set was pretty good, though the missing science from the category quiz annoyed me a bit.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by at your pleasure » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:20 pm

Out of couriousty, could you post examples of (cleared) religion questions you felt were misleading or puinished knowledge? I'm just curious and would like to know what to avoid when writing religion questions.
That said, I do sometimes have "how is that leadin material?" moments when I hear question on Jewish stuff(the question at NNT that had something about counting the omer as the leadin comes to mind). However, I suspect that this sort of feeling is at least partially the common "If I know it, it's easy" fallacy.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Tegan » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:10 pm

Anti-Climacus wrote:I'm just curious and would like to know what to avoid when writing religion questions <sic> However, I suspect that this sort of feeling is at least partially the common "If I know it, it's easy" fallacy.
I think, without going into details, that you run into this situation:

Someone who is not of religion "X" writes a question about something that they may not have intimate knowledge of, but have checked sources. However, inadvertently, the leadin is not uniquely identifying. To a member of religion "X", it sure seems uniquely identifying, and buzzes in, while someone not of religion "X" is still clueless and waits.

I read two religion questions in this set that, based on who was buzzing in and their reactions, that they felt the question was more "hose" than "easy leadin". In both cases, the players buzzed quickly with very confident answers, and in both cases were bewildered that their answers weren't acceptable. I suspect that the hosing was not intentional, and was more a lack of intimate knowledge about the subject that prevented the writer from writing a uniquely identifying leadin.

Having said that, I could be wrong ... maybe there was nothing wrong with the question, and it was just two bad buzzes.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by at your pleasure » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:25 pm

Huh. I thought that the question worked in the opposite way-the leadin seemed uniquely identifying, but it is not, and the member of the religion who knew other possible answers and was waiting for the question to rule them out( or is thinking “how is this hard enough to be a leadin” is beaten by someone who knows the most famous instance-in other words, the same problem that a terrible question on Mount Rushmore that uses Glutzon Borglum as the lead-in would have
I don't think this discussion can go a whole lot further until the set is cleared.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:57 pm

I was thinking along the lines of Mr. Egan, but I think it goes both ways. Sometimes it might seem uniquely identifying, other times it won't. Perhaps the most common confusion I see, and this happens in multiple sets, is when a Ramadan tossup is written like a fasting tossup.

Maybe I'm just splitting hairs for no reason, but this is the quickest example I could find from an old ACF set:

History — World
He is said to have smashed the pagan idols in the Ka'bah when the Meccans accepted Islam, to have impersonated Muhammad when the Prophet fled to Medina from his assassins, and to have compiled the first chronologically-arranged version of the Qur'an. The Battle of the Camel followed his refusal to prosecute the murderers of his predecessor 'Uthman, and he was assassinated in 661 after losing control of Egypt. Snubbed for the first caliphate in favor of Abu Bakr, FTP, who is this husband of Fatimah and fourth caliph considered by Shi'ites as the only true successor to Muhammad?
Answer: 'Ali Ibn Abu Talib

I would neg super hard on the first clue with "Muhammad", because it applies to him as well, and Muslims know Muhammad far better for this incident, not Ali. The second clue obviously rules my answer incorrect and is uniquely identifying. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always thought that the first clue in every tossup should be uniquely identifying. So maybe I worded my original statement incorrectly when I said they "punish" the player. Is my philosophy off here?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by at your pleasure » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:52 pm

That just looks like a bad tossup-aside from the aforementioned issue; it's rather short and becomes "this is an early Muslim leader" really, really quickly. And really, how many early Muslim leaders can you toss up anyways?
I personally would have sat on that clue (since "he smashed the idols in the kaaba" is much too famous to be a lead-in for Muhammad). However, I think that any knowledgeable moderator would have simply taken such an answer, and if the question had to be protested any competent TD would have simply given the protester the points.
I was thinking along the lines of Mr. Egan, but I think it goes both ways. Sometimes it might seem uniquely identifying, other times it won't. Perhaps the most common confusion I see, and this happens in multiple sets, is when a Ramadan tossup is written like a fasting tossup.
I am curious about the Ramadan/fasting issue.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:18 pm

Anti-Climacus wrote:Ramadan/fasting issue.

To put it in the fewest words possible, you don't "practice" Ramadan. Or even take part in it. If you phrase a question like that, you're asking for a neg on "fasting" or "sawm". I'm sure Jewish/Hindu/Buddhist/Christian/etc. questions will have the same effect in some cases.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by at your pleasure » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:27 pm

To put it in the fewest words possible, you don't "practice" Ramadan. Or even take part in it. If you phrase a question like that, you're asking for a neg on "fasting" or "sawm". I'm sure Jewish/Hindu/Buddhist/Christian/etc. questions will have the same effect in some cases.
I don't care what religion is being written about, calling a holiday a practice is just bad question writing. Like a hypothetical question on "passover" that spend the first half talking about the seder but does not include that as a acceptable alternative answer.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by cdcarter » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:47 pm

Anti-Climacus wrote:
To put it in the fewest words possible, you don't "practice" Ramadan. Or even take part in it. If you phrase a question like that, you're asking for a neg on "fasting" or "sawm". I'm sure Jewish/Hindu/Buddhist/Christian/etc. questions will have the same effect in some cases.
I don't care what religion is being written about, calling a holiday a practice is just bad question writing. Like a hypothetical question on "passover" that spend the first half talking about the seder but does not include that as a acceptable alternative answer.
That's...what he said!
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:46 am

On behalf of Ms. Greene and myself, thank you for all of the compliments re Loyburn. I had a lot of fun, and we hope to continue this tournament, alternating between Auburn and Loyola. And we'll try and avoid a Valentine's Day weekend.

I loved the questions, and also the variety of the format--I didn't even mind rebounds! The pace kept the tournament moving and we were able to do a ten-match round-robin and finish before 5pm (which one could never do with Illinois format).

And welcome, Jeff! [SILENT Jeff? Boggles the mind :grin: ]
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:41 pm

Feb 14, 2009 Walter Payton Invitational (HS) Walter Payton College Prep Jack Bowen

:w-hat: ?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Tegan » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:07 am

BGSO wrote:Feb 14, 2009 Walter Payton Invitational (HS) Walter Payton College Prep
This is an intriguing development. I also see that WP is going to be at NAQT State. The school has a pretty good rep .... I would like to see what their team is capable of.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by mlaird » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:54 am

BGSO wrote:Feb 14, 2009 Walter Payton Invitational (HS) Walter Payton College Prep Jack Bowen
Apparently they used IS #83. I wonder if it was an intramural to decide who was going to play at Fenton on the 7th. I know none of us were invited, so it couldn't have been much of an invitational. Either that or it was all Chicago Public Schools. In which case, awesome.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by mark vigil » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:40 pm

Who won masonic regionals?
Really not good enough to be posting on this board

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:44 pm

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Dresden_The_BIG_JERK » Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:31 pm

Does anybody know anything about the Peotone program?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Tegan » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:58 pm

Dresden The Moderator wrote:Does anybody know anything about the Peotone program?
They won their Regional last year. This year they were undefeated prior to meeting Lisle.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:42 am

Good luck to everyone at Masonic State on Saturday!
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am

Does anyone have Varsity and Frosh/Soph Mid-Suburban League results from Tuesday? I thought the BG folks would've put up something by now, as I know I would have if my own team had been playing in it.
Jeff Price, Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charbroil » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:09 pm

Hey, are there any Illinois teams going to Truman Bowl I on the 21st of March? It's going to be at Truman State University in Kirksville, Missouri, and I definitely think that the inclusion of some out of state teams would make things interesting, especially because Truman State's not that far from Illinois. Plus, it would be nice to see some new competition.

Post: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7086
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by dtaylor4 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:12 pm

Charbroil wrote:Hey, are there any Illinois teams going to Truman Bowl I on the 21st of March? It's going to be at Truman State University in Kirksville, Missouri, and I definitely think that the inclusion of some out of state teams would make things interesting, especially because Truman State's not that far from Illinois. Plus, it would be nice to see some new competition.

Post: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7086
Given that this is the day after IHSA State, I wouldn't bank on many teams.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:33 pm

Woody Paige wrote:Does anyone have Varsity and Frosh/Soph Mid-Suburban League results from Tuesday? I thought the BG folks would've put up something by now, as I know I would have if my own team had been playing in it.
Fremd beat us 190-181 for the varsity title, while Rolling Meadows beat Fremd for Frosh/Soph.

Neither David nor I posted results because we were both extremely frustrated with the match, and in particular the questions. It was probably the most "Bryce-less" packet that I can remember. It was clear that he made the history very hard for the championship, but he definetly took it too far. The history toss-ups were certainly harder than any other set that I have ever played (actually they were at about the level of the afternoon at New Trier). The history bonus difficulty was even worse. I am pretty decent at history and Alex is awesome at it. Over the course of the match, we never got more than five on a history bonus. Fremd did not get a single point on a history rebound. The lit was also very tough, as I do not think anybody got more than ten on a lit bonus (except for the one Fremd got, where they got two parts and we got the other two on the rebound). The two subjects that were spared the bonus difficulty issues were math and science. Fremd got basically all their points by getting a math tossup and a science bonus or vice versa. It seemed that these two subjects usually were paired together. All of these factors led to Fremd winning, despite the fact that they did not get a single toss-up in history or lit (I think).

That said, Fremd and in particular Arjun are awesome at math and science. I would be very surprised if they lost to Carmel, even though Carmel is seeded higher.

I saw the second half of the Frosh/Soph Championship and got the distinct impression that Fremd was the better team. Meadows dominated the second half score wise, but they got all of their points off Geography, Math, and Science, and none of their buzzes were impressive. Fremd had a couple of impressive buzzes and more importantly answered the only questions that were of vrsity difficulty.
Nicholas Bergeon
Buffalo Grove High School '09
UW-Madison '12
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the return of AHAN
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:06 am

Nick,
Sorry about your defeat. I know it's frustrating dealing with Fremd in a distribution that tilts towards math, because they become much tougher to beat. I've got seriously gifted math kids who just can't quite match their computational speed, usually lagging by just a fraction of a second, but they don't give us points for that. I know when we defeated them at frosh/soph round #6(2nd time in 3 tries), the only Math TU points we scored were off a rebound where a player failed to give her x-intercept as an ordered pair, as prompted. Not surprisingly, when they played the D&GT on an NAQT A set and house-written bonuses that didn't include a single math bonus, Fremd was a frustrated also-ran. You can argue this means their math skill makes them superior (sorry, but I ain't conceding science to them) at scholastic bowl, or that our teams are better suited to that so-called "national quizbowl" format. Whatever.
In any event, I tip my cap to the new champs of the MSL, Fremd & Rolling Meadows! Congrats to Coach Palmer and Coach Meyer!
Jeff Price, Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:09 am

Well, the issue wasn't as much their math speed, we took 1 or 2 of 6. It was the fact that of the 6/6 math distribution all 6 math were answered. While 2 history were answered, 1 or 2 lit, 1fine arts. That's where the questions went wrong.
David Garb-
Buffalo Grove High School '09
UIUC-'13

Former member of the most dysfunctional scholastic bowl team in Illinois.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:12 pm

Any updates from state?
David Garb-
Buffalo Grove High School '09
UIUC-'13

Former member of the most dysfunctional scholastic bowl team in Illinois.
(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Dan-Don » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:55 pm

BG MSL Champs wrote:That said, Fremd and in particular Arjun are awesome at math and science. I would be very surprised if they lost to Carmel, even though Carmel is seeded higher.
Yeah...through our League and various tourneys, I've had the chance to play Carmel something like 7 times in the last two years. They're just OK. So ever since the Sectional Seeding, we've been predicting a Fremd victory at the Carmel Regional. I don't know what went down at the Seeding, but Fremd should probably be #4 and Carmel #5.

Does anyone know the results of the IHSSBCA Mid-Season Poll?
Dan Donohue, Saint Viator ('10), Northwestern ('14), NAQT

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by jonah » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:13 pm

I don't know if it's supposed to be posted, but I'll post the top five from each class. If it's not supposed to be posted, I'll edit it out (or of course a mod can), and if so I apologize in advance for toe-stepping.

Class AA: Auburn, Carbondale, Loyola, New Trier, Stevenson
Class A: Petersburg PORTA, Macomb, Byron, Winnebago, Latin
Jonah Greenthal
National Academic Quiz Tournaments

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:35 pm

Do they really have such nebulous rules that you can't post basic results?
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
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