Illinois '08-'09

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:23 pm

Man, we need to get to 10000 by the end of the season. Also, we need more good January tournaments. The traditional sites just aren't getting it done.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Dresden_The_BIG_JERK » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:29 pm

Wouldn't the better solution be to improve the current sites?

Speaking of such, what's the latest on Winnebago Brad?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Awehrman » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:36 pm

There's not much we can do about the lack of good high school tournaments in January this year, but do you all think it would be a good move if Northwestern moved its Wildcat tournament to January next year? We've had less than 10 teams the last 2 years, so we certainly need some change. We Usually hold it in the fall since we need the money to fund our team, but since we're hosting a couple other tournaments this year, we have some financial freedom for a change.
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(formerly of Arkansas and Northwestern)

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:41 pm

That change might be a good idea, Andy. Winnebago's field is almost totally different from the field Northwestern might hope to draw. I'd stay away from the last weekend in January, though, because that's sometimes WUHSAC territory.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:06 pm

Dresden The Moderator wrote:Wouldn't the better solution be to improve the current sites?

Speaking of such, what's the latest on Winnebago Brad?
Winnebago is going to be a great tournament for all the non-elite teams - the field looks very balanced with the exception of the giant sucking sound at the top of the field. Unfortunately, my requests for ACF style bonuses and no computational math were rejected and my request for a ninth round to create a fair playoff system is still being considered - balanced against the inevitable fact that the afternoon will start around 2. Good news though - consolation brackets, so there will be more than 8 teams playing after lunch. :party:

Between Kaneland, Naperville Central, Sterling, Fremd, Bago, and Streator (the Northern-ish Illinois tournaments in January) there are 2 tournaments with pyramidal questions (NC and Bago), 1 tournament with a relatively fair playoff system (Bago, although I haven't heard about what NC did), 0 tournaments with ACF bonuses, 0 tournaments with a more fair distribution re: computation, and 0 tournaments featuring a final involving more than one top tier team. So far, efforts to improve these tournament have met with varying levels of difficulty; talking with Bago over the last year didn't change anything, and talking with other coaches on this list hasn't gotten anywhere on the topic of pyramidality, let alone anything else.

That said, most Northern Illinois area teams have their real season in January at these tourneys - most teams at the Decemberist noted that it's weird for them to play before winter break except for Kickoff. If these tournaments improve to our standards - even just pyramidality and fair playoffs - a lot of teams will finally see what we're talking about. Solving this issue would go a long way towards gains overall.

A January Wildcat would be an excellent start, and with Huskie Bowl and Loyburn starting up this year, February isn't going to be the wasteland it's been in years past. So there is some hope, but we've got a lot of work to do on this front talking to the directors of these tournaments.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:17 pm

Just as long as the Junior Wildcat can survive in February! Andy, any word on those teams pledging 1 or 2 teams?
http://groups.northwestern.edu/quizbowl ... tered.html
And FWIW, unless the tournament is an utter disaster, I'd expect a greater demand next year as the word gets out. Only a little more than half the teams attending my Barrington Tourney are going to the Jr. Wildcat.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:11 am

As keeper of the IHSSBCA calendar, one of the traditional problems is that 1) no one wants to host on the same day as another tournament, and 2) most of Chicagoland has an attitude of "60 teams is better than 24 teams". 1) is beginning to change as there is a split between "casual" and "Serious"--but let's not get into that discussion again--and thus 2) has somewhat begun to happen with new tournaments such as the Harvard Mirror, Loyburn, etc. that will (for now) attract only the elite or near-elite teams.

And btw, as we are no longer sending a team to NTAE, the Ultima next year will hopefully be an HSAPQ tournament; details forthcoming.

Andy and Jeff: we will begin to prepare next year's calendar sometime in May and June, as many schools schedule their events at that time (sometimes before). Keep me posted of any potential dates, and I can let you know dates that are generally claimed by long-standing tournaments.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Awehrman » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:26 am

That list is up to date. I have not heard back from the teams wavering between bringing one or two teams. Since the tournament is nearly at capacity, any additional teams will be placed on the waiting list. We shall see how the Junior Wildcat goes this year, before we think about next year. I certainly won't be able to take on the majority of the question writing duties again. I do hope that we will keep it going, though (barring an utter disaster).
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by mark vigil » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:29 pm

Fremd was a very disappointing , our division had WWS, BG and loyola. Needless to say, I feel like our division was stacked, intentionally or unintentionally. Also, there was an excessive amount of math with no music and very little lit. The question quality left alot to be desired. All around, i was very disappointed.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by rjaguar3 » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:52 pm

mark vigil wrote:Fremd was a very disappointing , our division had WWS, BG and loyola. Needless to say, I feel like our division was stacked, intentionally or unintentionally. Also, there was an excessive amount of math with no music and very little lit. The question quality left alot to be desired. All around, i was very disappointed.
Anyone know who wrote the questions for Fremd?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:32 pm

Sterling's tournament - well run, as usual. Questions poor, as usual. I will enjoy posting some examples at some point once I'm sure they won't be used anywhere else.

Results:
1. Springfield
2. Boylan
3. Moline
4. Byron
5. I can't remember who won this game
6. but it was either LaSalle Peru or Sterling
7. Morrison
8. Bettendorf
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:36 pm

Results from Fremd Varsity:

Round of 16:

1 Fremd A 240, 16 Lake Zurich B 90
9 Naperville North 145, 8 Fremd B 140
5 Stevenson 155, 12 Barrington 130
13 Quincy 110, 4 IMSA 70
3 St. Viator 180, 14 Bradley-B. A 150
6 Loyola 181, 11 Carmel 168
10 Maine South def. 7 Latin
2 Buffalo Grove 195, LZ A 125

Quarterfinals:
9 Naperville North def. 1 Fremd A
5 Stevenson 200, 13 Quincy 115
3 St. Viator 185, 6 Loyola 155
2 BG 150, 10 Maine South 140

Semifinals:
5 Stevenson 200, 9 Naperville North 165
3 St. Viator 200, 2 BG 110

Third Place Game:
9 Naperville North 200, 2 Buffalo Grove 115

Finals:
5 Stevenson 161, 3 St. Viator 145

Just a warning: A rant is coming
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Dan-Don » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:06 pm

OK just got back from a second-place finish at Fremd. Despite our success, this tournament had many faults, most of them dealing with question quality. Rant beginning:

What was up with the distribution? As a Lit/Fine Arts player, I was angered that there were no discernible rules for distribution or categorization. One round had 3 lit toss-ups, another had none. The rest just had one.

Fine arts was absent as toss-up category. Save for of course, the toss-up about rock 'n' roll-er Chuck Berry that was, for reasons unbeknownst to me, categorized as arts. Sports, mythology, economics, and entertainment/pop culture are not their own categories. Please categorize them appropriately. As a result, there was waaaaayy too much computational math.

Also, the lead-in clues on many of the toss-ups were just plain bad. For example one toss-up was: "An island off the coast of Indonesia is home to many types of (some species of) snake. But it is more famous for a certain lizard—" At this point, are we looking Komodo or Komodo dragon? (Thankfully I buzzed and said Komodo and was prompted for Dragon.) Another: "Spell the 'd' word that describes Aldous Huxley's—" I buzz in with dystopian, given that the question says describes and is clearly asking for an adjective. The answer was dystopia. Another toss-up: "Sirius and XM announced plans to join forces as one, preeminent satellite radio provider. This was approved by—" At this point there could be a number of answers: merger, stockholders, etc. So the rest of the question: "—the FCC. What does the FCC stand for?" Absolutely ridiculous.

Far too many bonuses were uncategorized "all the answers being with this letter" bonuses. Far too many toss-ups featured "begins with this letter" or "rhymes with" giveaway clues, resulting in buzzer races. The introduction to one toss-up in the morning even read, "OK teams, time for a buzzer beater question."

Finally, every bonus throughout the day was a four-parter. On the last bonus of the tournament, we have control, down by ten. What does the question writer do? Throws in a ridiculous three-part physics problem about an ice fisher trapped in a cabin slowly sliding around the ice.

OK rant now ending. I'll edit later if I think of anything I forgot. Other than the question quality, the tournament was very well-organized and efficient. This is especially impressive considering it was F/S and Varsity. Congrats, to the Fremd Tourney organizers.

I think the top 4 were:
1. Stevenson
2. Saint Viator
3. Naperville North
4. Buffalo Grove
Dan Donohue, Saint Viator ('10), Northwestern ('14), NAQT

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by mlaird » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:23 pm

rjaguar3 wrote:Anyone know who wrote the questions for Fremd?
I believe it was Question Bank. They probably used the same questions at Sterling, since Cheryl traditionally uses them.

Bleh.

I assume those are the Varsity results, what news from the Frosh/Soph side?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:57 pm

Round of 16(seeds in parentheses):
Zachless Lincolnshire Stevenson (1) 230, Lake Zurich B (16) 135
Aurora IMSA (8) 185, Elmhurst Timothy Christian (9) 140
Wilmette Loyola (5) 175, Naperville North (12) 155
Barrington (4) 225, Grayslake Central (13) 85
Oak Park Fenwick (3) 190, Mundelein Carmel B (14) 100
Palatine Fremd (6) 185, Quincy (11) 80
Chicago St. Ignatius (7) 102, Homewood Flossmoor (10) 31
Mundelein Carmel A (2) def. Bradley Bourbannais (score unreported)

Quarterfinals:
Zachless Stevenson 220, IMSA 100
Barrington 175, Loyola 170
Fremd 185, Fenwick 160
St. Ignatius 180, Carmel A 155

Semifinals:
Zachless Stevenson 265, Barrington 85 (it really wasn't as close as this score might make it appear)
Fremd 150, St. Ignatius 115

3rd Place:
St. Ignatius 145, Barrington 110

Championship:
Fremd 175, Stevenson 105 (Did I mention Stevenson didn't have Z. Blumenfeld today?)

And to all the people who listened to the Question Bank today, congratulations! You're now ready to play MSL Frosh-Soph. These are the questions our conference uses and the St. Ignatius coach said to me, "We think this guy must be from Oklahoma or something due to all the questions...."
And holy crap. He's right. I forgot that I met Mr. Brown when I lived in St. Louis in 1998 and his company was justing starting out. I remember now he was in town from Oklahoma for a Cubs-Cardinals game and it turned out I knew his sister(?) and she's the one who made introductions and we talked shop at a Cards game. Small world!

But yes, the weak arts distribution caused us to suffer and the 25% math distribution does nothing but help Fremd.
Last edited by the return of AHAN on Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:03 pm

I just posted something but for some reason it didn't take, so....

Another Fremd rant:

Mr. Palmer always runs a well-organized tournament. But these WERE SOME OF THE WORST QUESTIONS I"VE EVER HEARD, and that includes you-know-who from the early years.


There was poor distribution, numerous hoses and buzzer-beaters, and poor answer selection. I feel like I really let my team down by taking them. Henceforth, if it's not NAQT, Aegis, ACF, PACE, or HSAPQ, then we aren't going. Even though Stevenson is a great team, and although my varsity team made some careless mistakes, I feel that the rankings probably were not what they should have been.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:08 pm

My issuses with Fremd's tournament:

1. The Brackets
As mentioned above, we were put in a bracket with Wheaton Warrenville South and Loyola Academy. If you asked me, that is inexusable. I cannot perfectly remember the results of the last IHSSBCA poll (it is not posted), but I know the teams that were in the top eight. Of those teams, only #4 Loyola, #5 Stevenson, #6 WWS, #7 Fremd, and #8 BG went. There were eight brackets, yet somehow three of the top five teams ended up in the same bracket. Stevenson ended up in the same bracket as St. Viator, a team that does not travel but is extremely solid. This meant that of the ranked teams, only Fremd had an easy schedule, with several other brackets being lacking a top tier team. Mr. Palmer explained that the brackets were based off of geography and were random other than that. I believe that Mr. Palmer is telling the truth when he says that, but that is not an excuse. There is no reason for a man who knows the top teams (Mr. Palmer runs the coaches poll) to have random brackets at his tournament.

2. The Playoffs
This is a minor complaint, but one that needs to be noted. At this tournament, the sixteen teams that made the playoffs were the top two teams in each of the eight brackets. Because of the aforementioned bracket of death, this policy lead to WWS missing the playoffs, even though their only losses were to two of the top five teams in the tournament and they scored more points than IMSA, an undefeated division champion (and #4 seed). This could have easily been resolved by having the eight division champs and eight wild cards advance on.

3. The Logistics
In general, this tournament was well run. However, there were a few problems with logistics. The biggest issue would be the length of the rounds. The tournament ran from 9:30 A.M. (it was supposed to be 9:00) to 5:50 P.M. In that time, we only played nine rounds of sixteen questions. This was mostly likely caused by the slow speeds of certain readers. I did not realize how slow some moderators were until we got a great moderator (Mr. Laudermith) and had to wait 45 minutes for our next opponent to show up. Once again, this was not a huge deal as I understand it is hard to find 40 great moderators for a tournament, but I think it could have been better.

4. The Distribution
Overalll, I did not think the questions were terrible. When I play an Avery set, I find myself saying "Really?" to at least three questions per round. Today, it was only one per round. My complaints with questions were that there were way to many bonuses that involved naming words beginning with certain letters. Also, The pop culture seemed to be all sports and classic rock (which fits me well), while most U.S. History dealt with presidential elections (which also fits me well). As for the distro, there were almost no literature questions, too much grammar and spelling, and too much pop culture. The distribution got much worse in the playoffs, as the geography and history vanished, to be replaced by comp. math and science. I could talk more, but instead I will just give you the distro for the last round. Out of 16 questions
Comp. Math 4/4 (and both tiebreakers)
Comp. Science 2/1
Other Science 1/2
Pop Culture 1/2
History 3/1
Govt. and Law 1/0
Geography 0/2
Lit 1/2
Myth 1/0
Spelling 0/1
Fine Arts 1/1
Grammar 0/1

This distro seemed even worse as we were playing this. We wound up losing to Nperville North, who had 2 non computational toss-ups. In total, there were only four questions without either a math or science tossup or bonus. Of those four, one had spelling, one had grammar, and one had pop culture.


What I learned today:

1. St. Viator is really good. While these questions were far from good quizbowl, they demonstrated speed and knowledge which places them among the top 14 teams in state.

2. This tournament carries no legitimacy to it. We beat Loyola and we were missing 60% of our scoring (they were missing Jack, but still). Other very good teams struggled, while some schools who lacked great skill had huge days. The only thing that seemed to hold true was the fact that schools who play on a lot of bad questions beat those who do not.

3. Naperville North is amazing at computation.

4. The sophomore that we brought up to Varsity may be the last piece of the puzzle to turn us into the best of the 2nd tier teams.
Last edited by Kanga-Rat Murder Society on Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:36 pm

BG MSL Champs wrote: Other very good teams struggled, while some schools who lacked great skill had huge days. The only thing that seemed to hold true was the fact that schools who play on a lot of bad questions beat those who do not.
I can't argue with this, as, at least at the frosh soph level, two of your final four were MSL teams. Moreover, I couldn't believe it when Fremd knock off Zachless Stevenson in the final. When I talked to the Stevenson kids, they just shrugged and said they had a lot of bad early buzzes and got pwned on science by Arowena (sp?).

Stat of the Day:
Of the 3 math toss-ups in Barrington's round 4 match vs IMSA, IMSA scored exactly ZERO of them, with Barrington getting 2.
Of the 5 social studies (history & Civics) toss-ups in that match, IMSA outscored us 4-1.

Bonus conversation of the Day:
Round 7 vs Loyola: Patrick of Loyola is talking about the locations of the architectural landmarks given, and announces to Marcel, "well, for part 4, Adam Wainwright pitches for the St. Louis Cardinals, and they're asking for the Wainwright Building, so just say 'St. Louis'". :shock: Man, that's when you figure it's just your day.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Alex Harrison » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:53 pm

Nick,
fairly certain you hit the nail on the head, but some other detail stuff to add.
The playoff issue, I think was more a problem of the pool of death than the setup itself. If Mr. Palmer had decent pools, we wouldnt be bothering to argue this.

Definitely the tournament ran way too long, turning it into more of a marathon of quizbowl than series of games. We spent almost as much time at Rockford (including drive time) playing about as many or more games as we did here. While I think Mr. Palmer did a very good job for the most part, I think he bit off a bit more than he could chew with both tournaments at the same time. That forced him to put some very slow moderators in rooms and slow down the tournament. Anytime there is a 45 minute gap between games, as there was between our semi and 3rd place games, there's something messed up.

The questions were decent at best. They were definitely better than Avery, but nowhere's near NAQT or pretty much any other style. There were too many hoses, non-prompts ("Black Prince" as an acceptable substitute for Prince Edward, "Sweeny Todd" as the title rather than "Sweeny Todd: Demon Barber of Fleet St", etc), and buzzer races for these to be considered decent questions. I feel, as well as you Nick, and apparently you too Mr. Riley, that this tournament isnt really worth going to if these questions arent improved.

The distro was pretty bad. Nick, while its nice that these categories played into your strengths, they werent real categories. I agree with the St Viator kid that half of the categories should not have been categories and were branches of other categories. There was no real lit (that 1 lit question Nick brings up had the answer "Thomas Paine"), and too much comp stuff. 6/5 of comp is unreal and uncalled for. Spelling, grammar, and pop culture are nowheres near real categories, and Govt/Law, Geo, Econ/Business, and History are all social science. A funny note, in our third place game, a question had the category "American/World History", and had the answer "Adams-Onis Treaty". Uh.....fairly certain thats American History.

I'll agree with Nick about the things I learned from Fremd, although I will add that that soph still needs a little work before she becomes the last piece of our puzzle
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by at your pleasure » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:53 pm

Round 7 vs Loyola: Patrick of Loyola is talking about the locations of the architectural landmarks given, and announces to Marcel, "well, for part 4, Adam Wainwright pitches for the St. Louis Cardinals, and they're asking for the Wainwright Building, so just say 'St. Louis'".
To be fair, I'm rather startled by the idea of the Wainwright building showing up in what is intended to be a (terrible) regular set.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by jonah » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:29 am

David Riley wrote:Henceforth, if it's not NAQT, Aegis, ACF, PACE, or HSAPQ, then we aren't going.
I hope you'll come to New Trier Varsity next year, Illinois' house-written tournaments (Solo this year, and Earlybird in the future if it's done that way) and other tournaments like HFT if it's mirrored in Illinois again. Please?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:30 am

I'll be back for more, but I'm just throwing it out there that Sterling used this set of questions as well. I'll edit this post with my two cents as well.

The edit:
Question Bank produced an absolutely unacceptable set of questions. I would like to confirm almost all of the issues that people have so far mentioned and add in the following;

*Over the first 5 rounds of 20/20, there was 4/2 fine arts. Of those, 1 tossup started "This most famous violin maker"; there were 2 bonuses on country music in those same 5 rounds.
*In (Sterling's) Round 2, there were 7 miscellaneous bonuses alone, counting interdisciplinary as misc.
*The answer selection in the so-called "Business and Economics" category was: Pringles, Rice-a-Roni, JetBlue, Southwest Airlines, Band-Aids, and John Kenneth Galbraith. The Galbraith tossup began "This Canadian-born American economist".

On second thought, this headache is killing me. I'm going to bed, and will post more later.

P.S.: I'm no pro on Chicago geography, but what sort of gerrymandering puts WWS near Loyola near Buffalo Grove? Is that geographically sound?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Alex Harrison » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:37 am

jonah wrote:
David Riley wrote:Henceforth, if it's not NAQT, Aegis, ACF, PACE, or HSAPQ, then we aren't going.
I hope you'll come to New Trier Varsity next year, Illinois' house-written tournaments (Solo this year, and Earlybird in the future if it's done that way) and other tournaments like HFT if it's mirrored in Illinois again. Please?
Not to talk for Mr. Riley, but I think he meant that he wouldn't be playing on sets from known bad providers (like this)
I dont think he (or anyone else ripping on these questions) wanted to rip on your (NTV, etc.) questions which were very good
Last edited by Alex Harrison on Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by cornfused » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:49 am

Alex Harrison wrote:"Sweeny Todd" [sic] as the title rather than "Sweeny Todd: Demon Barber of Fleet St"
This is completely OK. "Sweeney Todd" is a title just as much as Moll Flanders is.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Edward Elric » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:58 am

Well as usual i'm bored so I decided to catch up with my favorite threads on tournaments (Fremd). I enjoyed reading what other people wrote so i decided to throw my 2 cents in. Well, unlike the rest of the kids who had commented my team, DID NOT make the afternoon round so i have to comment on what i saw in the morning.

First thing i noticed when looking at the brackets while waiting for 45 minutes for the first match to start :mad: was the fact that they shoved WWS A, Buffalo Grove and Loyola into the same division. My first reaction was what the hell, my second was that dang either way one of those teams isnt going to make it. Much to my surprise, WWS didn't make it and Garbless Buffalo Grove went 5-0. Now granted that Loyola was missing Jack Glerum, Dan Maddolozzo and Christian Kreb (i think, if u were there christian don't get pissed) and they had moved up Daniel Ampon and Donall Terell. That's 60 percent of their starting line up. So already i knew this tourney would be missing something.

When the matches did start, i was dumbfounded by the easy tossups and even easier bonuses. My team (which consisted of me the only senior, 2 juniors, 1 sophomore and 1 freshman we moved up) almost managed to beat Latin and Palatine. My division compared to WWS was a ton easier. I also found out that they sorted everything geographically. My question is that if he truely indeed sorted it by geographic location, then why weren't we with WWS A???

Next Point, the categories. I agree with Nick and Alex from Buffalo Grove in saying that the questions were not split up well (ie tons more math and less art and lit). Personally i didnt mind as i answered most of those questions, but i understand why others would get a little PO'd. After hearing the first round questions, i repeatedly shook my head at the quality as there were many sweeps of easy bonus categories.

Overall, i understand completely that Fremd was trying to run 2 tournaments at once and i commend them. My advice would be to rework the playoff system and include wild cards (as mentioned by someone earlier) and maybe remove the starts with letter categories. Also, impressed by St. Viator's placing at the tourney. We played them at Kaneland and lost by a moderate margin to them but i noticed how they were very fast and how well they worked as a team.

OH I almost forgot IG SIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
Last edited by Edward Elric on Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:26 am

I don't understand the alleged desire to group teams into pools by geography. If that's true, then my Barrington frosh/soph, while grouped with local Fremd B and Lake Zurich A, shouldn't have been grouped with Marist (159th Street of Chicago), IMSA, and WWS, but rather with a Cary-Grove & Palatine instead. So, I'm not accepting that statement. As a TD myself, I make a point of trying to SCATTER the teams such that they see new faces. For example, I'll never put Streator & Ottawa in the same pool, figuring if they wanted to play each other they don't have to drive 2 hours to Barrington to do so... I'll never group Bolingbrook Brooks & Bolingbrook Humphrey together for the same reason, etc. Variety is the spice of life and all that.
Now, I was told by someone (not Palmer) that the pools were luck of the draw. That's much more believable than the geography story. Not saying it's a good solution either, but I'm more inclined to believe it, knowing what I do about such things. Of course, I've never tried it. Maybe I should pool Bloomington JHS, Bloomington Holy Trinity and Normal Metcalf all together on 3/14 and see how they react... :wink:
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:32 am

To the people complaining: why did you attend?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by jonah » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:40 am

Alex Harrison wrote:
jonah wrote:
David Riley wrote:Henceforth, if it's not NAQT, Aegis, ACF, PACE, or HSAPQ, then we aren't going.
I hope you'll come to New Trier Varsity next year, Illinois' house-written tournaments (Solo this year, and Earlybird in the future if it's done that way) and other tournaments like HFT if it's mirrored in Illinois again. Please?
Not to talk for Mr. Riley, but I think he meant that he wouldn't be playing on sets from known bad providers (like this)
I dont think he (or any1 else ripping on these questions) wanted to rip on your (NTV, etc.) questions which were very good
Yeah, I doubted he actually meant that, but I want to emphasize that there are good tournaments out there that don't use the major providers (by which I mean NAQT and HSAPQ, really, since Aegis isn't so major and neither PACE nor ACF produce high school regular-season sets). I fully expect to see Loyola A, Loyola B, Loyola C, Loyola D, Loyola E, Loyola F, and perhaps a few additional teams from Loyola at those tournaments. The only question I have is whether there are enough letters in the alphabet.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:46 am

JackGlerum wrote:To the people complaining: why did you attend?
Vote with your dollars, everyone! (And make sure the tournament director understands the reason for your 'vote', so that it's not just a spitefest.)
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by shoot2thrill » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:58 am

Well, hello everyone. This is my first post here. :party: I've been following this thread for a little while, and I thought I'd add in my two cents as well about the Fremd Tournament earlier today (..or yesterday).

We brought a makeshift team (as we do 90% of the time), since Bonny Jain and one of our seniors Grant decided to go home for the weekend. So when I arrived, I was relieved to find ourselves in the weakest division, with Lake Zurich B, Culver IN, Conant, and Leyden B. That said, I agree that the divisions were poorly organized, with WWS, BG, and Loyola in the same division.

I agree with most others that these MSL-type questions are borderline to average at best and pitiful at worst. If ANYTHING, the spelling questions have to go. It really brought me back to old times when I was able to get a toss-up simply by spelling "dystopia" correctly.

Having played in MSL Freshmen Year for Fremd, I can also understand why Fremd did organized the tournament the way they did. I can't personally complain about the distribution, because the format did benefit me quite a bit. However, I would have liked Fremd to start using ACF style bonuses. I have talked to a couple of the Fremd coaches about maybe changing the tournament, though not to Mr. Palmer himself. At least, not yet.

I applaud Mr. Palmer for taking on the task of hosting a Varsity and Frosh-Soph tournament on the same day. It is NOT an easy thing to do, and the tournament was well-organized.

Since it is nearly 1:00, I will go to bed. More is on the way.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Edward Elric » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:00 am

JackGlerum wrote:To the people complaining: why did you attend?
Not sure if this is aimed at me but I attended in order to have fun and play quizbowl. By the way where were u, I was hoping to say hi and see ur reaction to ig.
Last edited by Edward Elric on Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:39 am

My guess is that when Mr. Palmer said that geography was a factor that he was trying to insure that he did NOT get a bracket that consisted entirely of the North Shore, or the West Suburbs, or Downstaters, or whatever. He probably tried to avoid match-ups between two teams in the same Conference. Furthermore, that's what he should do, though it should have been coupled with making sure that the top teams were in different pools.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:14 am

cornfused wrote:
Alex Harrison wrote:"Sweeny Todd" [sic] as the title rather than "Sweeny Todd: Demon Barber of Fleet St"
This is completely OK. "Sweeney Todd" is a title just as much as Moll Flanders is.
Funny story about this one. Our player buzzed in with Sweeney Todd, and was prompted and ruled incorrect. Our opponent buzzed in and said The Demon Barber of Fleet Street. The moderator then prompted and she said Sweeney Todd. When the moderator ruled it correct, I challenged, saying it is not "The Demon Barber of Fleet Street: Sweeney Todd". It was a jackXXX thing to do, but I was pissed over our answer not getting being correct. So sure enough, I got the question taken out and Richards now hates me.
JackGlerum wrote:To the people complaining: why did you attend?
As soon as I found out that David and Greg could not go, I proposed that we register as a B team. Sara (our Super Soph) could play F/S to build up chemistry with those players in case her plan go to college after junior year plan doesn't materialize. I would watch the Frosh/Soph, as it is one of only two chances to look at their team in action. Alex would then not play, and we would be a B team. Our coach said this violated the spirit of competition. As soon as we got our gym teacher (of all people) to take us to Huskie Bowl, I told Mr. Park that I thought we should cancel. Alas, he would not let us and we went. Also, I would like to say that it was fairly enjoyable until the last two rounds when it went from bad quizbowl to Math Team.
Shcool wrote:My guess is that when Mr. Palmer said that geography was a factor that he was trying to insure that he did NOT get a bracket that consisted entirely of the North Shore, or the West Suburbs, or Downstaters, or whatever. He probably tried to avoid match-ups between two teams in the same Conference. Furthermore, that's what he should do, though it should have been coupled with making sure that the top teams were in different pools.
I was about to say the same thing. This is indeed the case.
Komodo Dragon Question
This was one of the worst questions ever. When our player buzzed in Komodo Dragon, I actually said no out loud, as I thought they were asking for the island.
rockinzeppelin wrote:Now granted that Loyola was missing Jack Glerum, Dan Maddolozzo and Chrisitian Kreb (i think, if u were there chrsitian don't get pissed).
Christian was indeed there.
David Riley wrote:.
There was poor distribution, numerous hoses and buzzer-beaters, and poor answer selection. I feel like I really let my team down by taking them. Henceforth, if it's not NAQT, Aegis, ACF, PACE, or HSAPQ, then we aren't going. Even though Stevenson is a great team, and although my varsity team made some careless mistakes, I feel that the rankings probably were not what they should have been.
You are being too modest. If these questions were good, Joe Ahmad would have won solo. Stevenson was lacking Zach and we were lacking Garb. Maybe WWS could have beat him but they would be the only team with a shot. Instead, he was not even on the all-tourney team. When we played your team, it just seemed like they were over thinking every answer, while we are just used to bad questions. Because of this, I felt like garbage after what should have been the greatest victory in school history.
Alex Harrison wrote:
JackGlerum wrote:To the people complaining: why did you attend?
1) We didnt know it was gonna be that bad
Yes, we did. I did not expect the bracket of death, but I actually expected the physical questions (not the distribution) to be even worse.

Edited to correct language and respond to Alex's post
Last edited by Kanga-Rat Murder Society on Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Alex Harrison » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:24 am

JackGlerum wrote:To the people complaining: why did you attend?
1) We didnt know it was gonna be that bad
2) There are no other tournaments that our coach will take us to then
3) There aren't many good january tournaments period (an issue that has been discussed before)
4) We (BG) usually go as a friendly gesture, seeing as we and Fremd will play probably 4 times this year
5) We're not smart enough to play ACF against college teams....haha just kidding around
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Dan-Don » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:06 pm

BG MSL Champs wrote:Stevenson ended up in the same bracket as St. Viator, a team that does not travel but is extremely solid.

St. Viator is really good. While these questions were far from good quizbowl, they demonstrated speed and knowledge which places them among the top 14 teams in state.
Thanks for the praise, Nicholas. No, we are not a traveling team because the powers-that-be do not recognize us as an activity and therefore do not grant us a budget. However, when we found out the IHSSBCA ranked us #11 in its preseason poll but neglected us in its early season poll, we decided it was time to travel more and we've been paying for tourneys out of our pockets. We wrap up out league on the 31st, then go to Huskie Bowl, Loyola, Masonic Sectionals, Homewood-Flossmoor, Culver (possibly), maybe even a qualifier for the NAQT HSCT, and then regionals. Hopefully our recent second places (at the Kaneland and Fremd Tourneys) and future success can earn us a top-15 spot on the IHSSBCA mid-season poll. Any thoughts?

Some more thoughts on the Fremd questions. I think the crux of the matter is this: when the lead-in clues and first sentences of toss-ups weren't ridiculously easy ("In this novel, Estella marries..."), they were incredibly vague. This was the first tourney I've been to in two years where I didn't make All-Tournament, and I was livid. I think it came down to the fact that I wanted to buzz dangerously early (as is my normal strategy) but instead I found myself thinking things like Is the question asking for a noun or verb? Do they want the person or the thing named after the person? and therefore I had to wait until the ends of questions to buzz and by that point it was a buzzer race because of the poor giveaway clues. Normally this wouldn't be an issue, but the moderators in the playoffs didn't understand "two pieces of info" and other such rules.

Some other gems I can think of. Did anyone notice that James Joyce question that was categorized American Lit? Also, legitimate Business-Economics questions are one thing, but not when that category is used to every round to ask questions about Jet Blue and Land O' Lakes Butter. (I actually got the latter....I'm not proud of myself.)

Edit: I forgot to mention a few logistical complaints. After our semi-final against BG, we had to wait 45 minutes for the other final to end. Granted, we had Mr. Laudermith (far and away the best, most efficient reader at this tourney) and plenty of bonus sweeps. But still, 45 minutes? We were so hungry, they had to let us into the coach's room to snack on cold, leftover pizza. Of course, we probably would not have been that hungry if the tournament had started at 9:00, as advertised, and not at 9:45. I'm not saying this lull caused us to lose to Stevenson in the finals (a team we beat in pool play) but it certainly didn't help.
Last edited by Dan-Don on Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Deviant Insider » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:45 pm

If anybody is going to write a letter to Mr. Palmer, be very respectful. Keep in mind that the main reason he runs his tournament is to give teams a chance to compete and that running a large tournament is always a huge mess. Also keep in mind that Illinois hosts are between the devil and the deep blue sea right now, since competitive teams are demanding academic pyramidal questions, several teams are demanding IHSA style questions, and nobody is producing academic pyramidal IHSA style questions for Invitationals. (Aegis is producing them for Kickoffs and Masonics only, IHSA is producing them for conferences only, the mystery consortium is producing them for IHSA only, and house-writing them is a lot of work and often leads to complaints.) Looking ahead to next year, I have no idea how to get questions for Kickoffs and Turnabouts and no recommendation to give the Masons about their tournament.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by mlaird » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:26 pm

DD60004 wrote: No, we are not a traveling team because the powers-that-be do not recognize us as an activity and therefore do not grant us a budget. However, when we found out the IHSSBCA ranked us #11 in its preseason poll but neglected us in its early season poll, we decided it was time to travel more and we've been paying for tourneys out of our pockets. We wrap up out league on the 31st, then go to Huskie Bowl, Loyola, Masonic Sectionals, Homewood-Flossmoor, Culver (possibly), maybe even a qualifier for the NAQT HSCT, and then regionals.
Good for you re: paying out of your own pockets! I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that if you or your coach approached any TD before a tournament and explained your predicament that they would be willing to give you a discount/free entry. Masonic is free anyways, so you should go there no matter what (plus, I know they questions will be at least decent).
DD60004 wrote:Hopefully our recent second places (at the Kaneland and Fremd Tourneys) and future success can earn us a top-15 spot on the IHSSBCA mid-season poll. Any thoughts?
The coaches' poll really only has like 5-6 people who vote in it (I was recently barred from entering a ballot, since Coach Palmer didn't want two people affiliated with the same school casting votes), so take it with a grain of salt. It gets most things right, but after 1-4 it's really hard to delineate anyways.

(Also, while you guys are undoubtedly good, both of those tournaments you've mentioned are kind of bad, so do better at a good tournament and we can really start talking about you guys being top-tier.)

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by shoot2thrill » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:21 pm

DD60004 wrote:Some other gems I can think of. Did anyone notice that James Joyce question that was categorized American Lit? Also, legitimate Business-Economics questions are one thing, but not when that category is used to every round to ask questions about Jet Blue and Land O' Lakes Butter. (I actually got the latter....I'm not proud of myself.)
I believe that the James Joyce question had a typo in it, and that it was meant to be James Jones, not James Joyce. Our moderator threw out the question right away.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:59 pm

I have to say I am thrilled that a team like St. Viator, which I hadn't heard of before this year, is trying out the PACE NSC format at the Loyburn Classic when so many other longtime coaches purposely limit their team to IHSA-like events. Major kudos.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:43 pm

Masonic sites are up http://home.mchsi.com/~thayerdale/#Regi ... 0Locations

New Trier site:

Stevnson
BG
MS
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Viator?

Why couldn't they have assigned us to Morrison High school?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Edward Elric » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:20 pm

Anyone know who is going to Homewood-Flossmoor tournament on March 7th? It is the week before IHSA sectionals and my teams last tournament (excluding sectionals).
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Captain Sinico » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:38 pm

Is "well-run" anything but a platitude here? After all, the following complaints have been lodged and not disagreed with:
1. Tournament started late.
2. Bracketing was very poor and favored the home team (by chance if we grant all the benefit of the doubt to the hosts.)
3. Moderating quality was inconsistent at best.
4. Moderators generally failed to enforce even simple, well-entrenched rules (generally disallowed two-item blitzes, prompted on titles, didn't overturn obviously mis-underlined/hose questions...)
5. Tournament ran late, even accounting for its starting late.
6. Tournament provided few games (and none on quality questions) considering how long it ran.

Not to be more of a jerk than is necessary, but what else can a tournament possibly do wrong logistically? It sounds to me like this was just a bad event all around (since the questions unimpeachably failed in pretty much every way.) I join Jack in suggesting that all of you let these hosts know that this event was unacceptable and, if they cannot credibly make the changes necessary to do it right, that you refuse to go to such events.

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:41 pm

But Mike, it was run by a coach who has been around for a long time, so it must be a good tournament!

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Edward Elric » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:53 pm

JackGlerum wrote:But Mike, it was run by a coach who has been around for a long time, so it must be a good tournament!
If I had a dollar for everytime i heard that...
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sir Thopas » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:21 pm

rockinzeppelin wrote:
JackGlerum wrote:But Mike, it was run by a coach who has been around for a long time, so it must be a good tournament!
If I had a dollar for everytime i heard that...
You'd probably be a cotton magnate.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:59 pm

DD60004 wrote: Also, the lead-in clues on many of the toss-ups were just plain bad. For example one toss-up was: "An island off the coast of Indonesia is home to many types of (some species of) snake. But it is more famous for a certain lizard—" At this point, are we looking Komodo or Komodo dragon? (Thankfully I buzzed and said Komodo and was prompted for Dragon.)
So, I was talking to the Barrington varsity coach today, and he told me that one of our players buzzed on that same spot of that question (round of 16 vs. Stevenson), said "Komodo," was prompted, and answered "Komodo Island". :sad: Obviously rebounded by Stevenson.
Final score? Stevenson 155, Barrington 130. 25-point loss on a hose question to the eventual champs.
:capybara:
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by dtaylor4 » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:21 pm

rockinzeppelin wrote:Anyone know who is going to Homewood-Flossmoor tournament on March 7th? It is the week before IHSA sectionals and my teams last tournament (excluding sectionals).
So I take it you guys are not going to the NAQT State Championship on the same date?

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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by rjaguar3 » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:32 pm

dtaylor4 wrote:
rockinzeppelin wrote:Anyone know who is going to Homewood-Flossmoor tournament on March 7th? It is the week before IHSA sectionals and my teams last tournament (excluding sectionals).
So I take it you guys are not going to the NAQT State Championship on the same date?
I e-mailed Ms. Kidd about that. She said that unfortunately, she was already signed up to do H-F.

Don't see why she can't just cancel and go to NAQT state...
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Edward Elric » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:27 pm

rjaguar3 wrote:
dtaylor4 wrote:
rockinzeppelin wrote:Anyone know who is going to Homewood-Flossmoor tournament on March 7th? It is the week before IHSA sectionals and my teams last tournament (excluding sectionals).
So I take it you guys are not going to the NAQT State Championship on the same date?
I e-mailed Ms. Kidd about that. She said that unfortunately, she was already signed up to do H-F.

Don't see why she can't just cancel and go to NAQT state...
Hey I wouldn't mind going there... we'd suck but it would be more fun then a tourney without the good teams, which apparently are going to state.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Dan-Don » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:56 pm

BGSO wrote:Masonic sites are up http://home.mchsi.com/~thayerdale/#Regi ... 0Locations

New Trier site:

Stevnson
BG
MS
NT
Fremd
Viator?

Why couldn't they have assigned us to Morrison High school?
Haha. I agree. That Morrison regional is ridiculous compared to ours. Oh well.
rockinzeppelin wrote:Anyone know who is going to Homewood-Flossmoor tournament on March 7th? It is the week before IHSA sectionals and my teams last tournament (excluding sectionals).
We planned on going to H-F but now it looks like we're going to the NAQT state tournament. But nothing is finalized, so we might be at H-F.
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