2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

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2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:18 pm

PACE is pleased to announce that the 2012 National Scholastics Championship (NSC) will be held at Washington University in St. Louis on the weekend of June 9th to June 10th in partnership with the Washington University Academic Team. Washington University is easily accessible from the St. Louis airport via public transportation, and is able to provide a large number of classrooms in two buildings in close proximity to each other.

The tournament will be directed by the PACE VP of Tournament Direction, Matt Weiner. Matt has extensive experience directing high school and college quizbowl tournaments, including previous iterations of the NSC. Matt and the rest of the PACE organization will be taking several steps to rectify the logistical issues at previous iterations of the NSC, particularly the major issues of the 2011 NSC. Matt will be making a follow-up post shortly that outlines the steps he plans to take to ensure that this year’s NSC will run with the efficiency and fairness you expect from a premier high school quizbowl national championship.

Like previous NSCs, the question set will be produced in-house by PACE. Chris Ray will be serving as the head editor of the set this year. Chris served in the same role for the 2010 NSC and has edited numerous high school and college tournaments. The distribution will be largely similar to last year, although the final details are still being worked out.

Note that unlike in previous years, there will be a two week gap between the NAQT HSCNT and the PACE NSC. The tournament will still take place over two days. Teams are advised not to book flights prior to at least 7 PM on Sunday if they wish to attend the finals, awards and all-star game.

We are initially limiting the field size to 48 teams. However, we will be reevaluating the field size in late January or early February. If there is sufficient demand, we will increase the field size by up to 16 teams, for a maximum possible number of teams of 64. It’s also possible that the field size may be increased by a smaller amount, such as 8 teams. The list of affiliated tournaments, qualified teams and registered teams can be found linked from the homepage of the PACE website, and updates to the first two of those pages will begin soon.

The tournament will be conducted with the same general format as last year. Namely, games will continue to consist of 20 tossups and up to 20 bonuses, with missed bonus parts bouncing back to the other team. PACE will be posting an update to the rules in order to better handle protest resolutions with bounced back bonuses. We will also be keeping the All-Star game, which will be played on academic questions, although there will be some small changes to the all-star team composition. PACE would like to thank the players and coaches who provided valuable feedback on the issue of bonus bounce backs and the format of the All-Star game.

The details of the fee structure for this tournament can be found on this page.

Registration dates will also be the same as last year. Please see the Tournament Affiliation Guide for a breakdown of when teams are able to register. We will be announcing the specific steps necessary to register your team in the coming months.

PACE will be posting additional details regarding schedules, transportation, hotels, how to get the campus, food options, etc. as the date of the tournament gets closer.

If you have any questions about the NSC or PACE in general, please e-mail me (Sarah Angelo), PACE’s Vice President of Communication, at sangelo147@gmail.com.

We look forward to welcoming teams, coaches, and parents to the 2012 NSC in St. Louis.

Edit: Hotel information can now be found here.
Last edited by The Laughing Cavalier on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mike Bentley » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:52 pm

Can an admin please pin this thread? Thanks.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby bird bird bird bird bird » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:54 pm

Mike Bentley wrote:Can an admin please pin this thread? Thanks.


Done.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mechanical Beasts » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:07 pm

Wasn't the last time a Matt-directed tournament at Wash U... ACF Nationals 2009? What steps has PACE taken to ensure that the Wash U-Matt Weiner communication axis won't break down again, in particular when PACE is a tournament much larger (and with more stringent logistical requirements) than ACF?
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:08 pm

Here is the follow-up logistics post promised in the announcement:

PACE wrote:The plan for running a good NSC in 2012 is as follows:

The TD will designate and work with an assistant TD for staff recruitment who will begin securing commitments immediately and relentlessly continue recruiting staff until we have 72 staffers (or 88 for a 64-team tournament). We will re-institute the $50 stipend for staffers not requesting travel/lodging reimbursement, We will work with MOQBA to recruit staffers from the area of the tournament site more aggressively than was done last year. We will have, in every game room, a scorekeeper, as well as a moderator who can finish the packet in 30 minutes.

PACE is in the process of making revisions to the rules in order to fix the rule about bounceback replacements and otherwise make sure the rules are clear, fair, and consistent in advance of the tournament. The revised rules will be available on our website as soon as they are finished.

The TD will appoint holders of the operational roles of the tournament, including the protest committee, the control room operators, the central statkeeper, and the buzzer master, as soon as possible and give extensive instruction on what is expected of these people and how they can do it well in advance of the tournament. The entire tournament head staff will be involved in the tournament planning process so that, by the time the event starts, they are fully confident about their roles.

The TD will personally make one-on-one contact with every coach who attended the 2011 NSC and is at risk of not attending the 2012 NSC as a result to determine what further actions are necessary to retain a top-quality field.

We will seek to expand the prestige of the tournament by instituting incentives for greater attendance at the finals and trophy presentation and by introducing more use of livecasting.

Elements of the 2009 NSC which proved helpful, such as the detailed master plan and the early creation of tournament documents, will be repeated, and elements in other tournaments which caused stress, such as a lack of staff training and a needlessly complicated rebracketing process, will be replaced.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Khanate » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:22 am

What will the distribution (and subdistribution) be?
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mike Bentley » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:13 pm

Khanate wrote:What will the distribution (and subdistribution) be?


It will be largely similar to last year, although the specifics will be announced at a later date.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mike Bentley » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:40 am

An update on the editing situation: Due to an unexpected work commitment, Chris Ray will no longer be serving as the Head Editor of the NSC. Serving in his place in this role will be fellow PACE member Eric Mukherjee. Eric, who is currently a medical student at the University of Pennsylvania, has edited numerous highly regarded college tournaments, such as various versions of the Early Fall Tournament (EFT), THUNDER II and ACF Regionals.

Chris will continue to be involved in the set as the social science editor. The other editors are as follows:
History - Matt Weiner
Literature - Rob Carson
Science - Eric Mukherjee
Religion/Mythology/Philosophy - Auroni Gupta
Visual Arts - Mike Bentley
Audio Arts - Jonathan Magin
Social Science - Chris Ray
Geography and Current Events - Kyle Haddad-Fonda

I have the highest confidence in Eric and the other editors' abilities to craft a question set that meets the best standards for high school quizbowl.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mike Bentley » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:04 pm

As a reminder, registration for teams that qualified for the NSC at a Platinum-certified tournament opens on Thursday, December 1st. PACE will be posting details on how teams register for the NSC shortly.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mike Bentley » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:25 pm

PACE has posted an updated version of its rules for the 2012 NSC. The updated rules can be found at http://www.pace-nsc.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/PACE-NSC-2012-Rules.doc.

The primary, but not exhaustive, list of changes from last year’s rules are as follows:
1. Clarification of bonus replacement policy. Note that PACE will be issuing follow-up material to better illustrate how bonuses will be replaced in the event of protests, moderator error, or other issues.
2. Revision of the tiebreaking and final placement clauses.
3. Instructions for filing a protest made more explicit.
4. Clarification on player eligibility.
5. Clarification on grounds for protesting tossup questions.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:31 pm

Registration opens for platinum qualified teams on December 1. I'll be maintaining a list of registered teams on our website.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:52 pm

Good evening, everyone! I'm excited to note that we already have 16 teams, representing 5 states and the District of Columbia, registered for the 2012 NSC. These teams are listed at the link in my above post, but I wanted to alert interested teams that spots are being claimed faster than we anticipated this year. I hope to see you in St. Louis!
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:16 pm

The Laughing Cavalier wrote:Good evening, everyone! I'm excited to note that we already have 16 teams, representing 5 states and the District of Columbia, registered for the 2012 NSC. These teams are listed at the link in my above post, but I wanted to alert interested teams that spots are being claimed faster than we anticipated this year. I hope to see you in St. Louis!


On that note, the field is now slightly over half-full, at 25 teams. UVA's exams have started, but I'll be keeping the field accurate within 24 hours or less of a new registration, and I've spent a large part of today emailing teams and TDs to make sure teams who are able to register now are aware that they can. I'll be working on getting the affiliated tournaments and qualified teams pages of the website caught up over the next week (TDs, if your tournaments aren't listed, you can help expedite that process by making sure you've answered my emails about affiliation and results confirmation! I'm reachable at sangelo147 at gmail dot com). Once those pages are caught up, I'm planning to add the previous NSCs played information we've included on the registered teams page for the past several years and also to create a qualified teams by state page, since people have found those interesting in the past. Anyone with serious and reasonable objections to me not including a team's city in their state/province listing this year should let me know. I discovered working on that page last year that it's even more common than I thought for states to have multiple high schools of the same name, and I'd rather leave cities omitted than list them incorrectly.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mike Bentley » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:51 pm

Just a heads up that registration for teams that have qualified at gold-certified tournaments opens on January 1st.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:05 pm

Mike Bentley wrote:Just a heads up that registration for teams that have qualified at gold-certified tournaments opens on January 1st.


The gold-qualified teams we have contact information for should have an email from me sometime tomorrow.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mike Bentley » Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:08 am

Mike Bentley wrote:Just a heads up that registration for teams that have qualified at gold-certified tournaments opens on January 1st.


Registration is now open for gold-certified teams.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:41 pm

The field for the 2012 NSC is currently full at 48 teams. There are 2 teams on the waiting list. To join the waiting list, please fill out the registration form.

We will consider expanding the field in late January or early February depending on the amount of staff and rooms available to us and on interest from teams. If you wish to attend the 2012 NSC, please go ahead and sign up for the waiting list rather than wait for us to expand the field, as we can use the waiting list to see how much demand there is for more spots.

If we do choose to expand the field, we will make a public announcement and notify the waitlisted teams that they have either joined the field or, if applicable, moved up on the waiting list.

Thanks, everyone, for your interest in the 2012 NSC.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:59 pm

As promised, here are some hotel recommendations based on the research of our treasurer, Aaron Rosenberg:

Teams are advised to review public transportation options before making hotel reservations.

I. Official Hotel
PACE's official hotel for the 2012 NSC is the Sheraton Clayton Plaza. All non-local staffers not accompanying teams will be lodged here. We encourage teams to consider this option, as it is located only two blocks from the Clayton Metrolink station. From there, teams can take the Metrolink to the University City Big Bend station, located right next to the Wash U campus. The Metrolink runs every 20 minutes throughout the day including weekends.

Phone: (314) 863-0400

II. Other hotels near the university:
1. Crowne Plaza, 1.7 miles, 7750 Carondelet Avenue, (314) 727-7434
2. Seven Gables Inn, 2.0 miles, 26 North Meramec Avenue, (314) 863-8400
3. Hampton Inn and Suites at Forest Park, 2.7 miles, no Metrolink access, 5650 Oakland Avenue, (314) 655-3993

III. Hotels near the airport (10-11 miles from the university)
1. Drury Inn, 10490 Natural Bridge Rd, (314) 423-7700
2. Best Western Airport Plaza Inn, 4530 North Lindbergh Boulevard, Bridgeton, MO, (314) 731-3800
3. Holiday Inn, 4505 Woodson Road, (314) 427-4700
4. Comfort Inn Airport and Conference Center, 9600 Natural Bridge Rd, (314) 427-7600

To make this information easy to find again, I'll edit it into the announcement as well.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby jonpin » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:56 am

The Laughing Cavalier wrote:I. Official Hotel
PACE's official hotel for the 2012 NSC is the Sheraton Clayton Plaza. All non-local staffers not accompanying teams will be lodged here. We encourage teams to consider this option, as it is located only two blocks from the Clayton Metrolink station. From there, teams can take the Metrolink to the University City Big Bend station, located right next to the Wash U campus. The Metrolink runs every 20 minutes throughout the day including weekends.


Just a note, depending on what buildings are being used for the tournament, teams coming from downtown or the airport may find it easier to exit at Skinker, one stop east.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:29 pm

Teams who have qualified at a single affiliated tournament (i.e., all remaining qualified teams) are eligible to register beginning tomorrow, February 1.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Superfluous Man » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:19 pm

This is a reminder that the early payment discount of $25 per school will expire after this Thursday, March 1. Checks must be postmarked on or before that date for the school to remain eligible for the discount.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:12 am

Cross-posted from its own thread:

At this time, we are unable to expand the field for the 2012 PACE NSC. We remain open to the possibility of expanding the field, but we first must have enough staff lined up to do so without compromising the logistics of the tournament. Meanwhile, waitlisted teams will be notified if they enter the field or move up on the list. If we are able to expand the field, an announcement will be made here and I will email the qualified teams for whom I have contact information. Anyone interested in staffing the NSC and helping us increase the chances of being able to accommodate more of our many currently waitlisted teams should contact staff coordinator Matt Bollinger at mlb7vb@virginia.edu.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Superfluous Man » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:48 pm

A brief note about entry fees:

If your team is on the waitlist and moves up into the tournament proper, the early payment deadline will be extended for you on a case-by-case basis, unless your school already had at least one team in the 48. The following rule still applies:

PACE NSC Website wrote:All registration checks must be postmarked by May 2. For each day your check is not postmarked after May 2, a $15 fee will be added to your entry fee. If your check is not received by May 13, PACE reserves the right to drop your team from the tournament.


Of course, this deadline will also be extended if a team moves up in late April or in May.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mike Bentley » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:12 pm

The wait list for the tournament is now down to 1 team. I encourage any qualified team not yet signed up that wishes to attend to register now to get the best shot at getting a spot if any other teams drop.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Superfluous Man » Wed May 02, 2012 12:43 am

Hello Teams,

This is a reminder that today is the deadline to postmark all registration checks for the NSC, unless I have told you otherwise. The penalties mentioned in my previous post still apply.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Wed May 23, 2012 10:39 am

Good morning, everyone. Here's the basic schedule for the 2012 NSC:

Saturday
7:00 AM - 8:15 AM: Registration
8:15 AM - 8:50ish: Opening Meeting and Cooper Award Presentation
9:00 AM: Start of Round 1, whether both teams have arrived or not. Please be on time; we'd hate to start without you!
6:15 PM: End of Saturday games.

Sunday
8:30 AM: Beginning of round 13.
9:40 AM: Round 14 ends. Teams below the top 16 have finished and are free to watch superplayoff games.
10:30 AM: The earliest a team may retrieve buzzers from HQ. The superplayoffs will be using staff-provided buzzer systems.
4:30 PM: Superplayoff games, lunch, finals, awards, the All-Star Game, and David Madden's quizbowl awards are expected to be concluded by this time.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby in on these shenanigans » Wed May 23, 2012 12:49 pm

Does this schedule mean a 60-team format has been decided? It looks like it has, because "16 teams are in the superplayoffs" and "the other 44 teams get 14 games" seem like facts only known once the format is known.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Wed May 23, 2012 2:47 pm

in on these shenanigans wrote:Does this schedule mean a 60-team format has been decided? It looks like it has, because "16 teams are in the superplayoffs" and "the other 44 teams get 14 games" seem like facts only known once the format is known.



That's correct. My apologies if that wasn't clear; I announced it a week ago on our website and in the field expansion thread, but I don't believe it was mentioned in this thread.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby in on these shenanigans » Wed May 23, 2012 3:00 pm

The Laughing Cavalier wrote:
in on these shenanigans wrote:Does this schedule mean a 60-team format has been decided? It looks like it has, because "16 teams are in the superplayoffs" and "the other 44 teams get 14 games" seem like facts only known once the format is known.



That's correct. My apologies if that wasn't clear; I announced it a week ago on our website and in the field expansion thread, but I don't believe it was mentioned in this thread.


Actually, my apologies, because my post ended up ambiguously written -- I meant "Given that it's a 60-team tournament, has PACE decided how to format a 60-team tournament that isn't as bad as last year's format?"
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Wed May 23, 2012 3:11 pm

in on these shenanigans wrote:
The Laughing Cavalier wrote:
in on these shenanigans wrote:Does this schedule mean a 60-team format has been decided? It looks like it has, because "16 teams are in the superplayoffs" and "the other 44 teams get 14 games" seem like facts only known once the format is known.



That's correct. My apologies if that wasn't clear; I announced it a week ago on our website and in the field expansion thread, but I don't believe it was mentioned in this thread.


Actually, my apologies, because my post ended up ambiguously written -- I meant "Given that it's a 60-team tournament, has PACE decided how to format a 60-team tournament that isn't as bad as last year's format?"


Indeed! Matt's brief explanation of the format is that it will be similar to the one used in 2010, although there will be some byes and there won't be as many end-of-tournament placement games as were held that year. He's at work, so unfortunately that's as detailed information as I can provide for now. We're aware of the issues possible in 10-team brackets and I assure you that they will not be reappearing at this year's tournament.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Matt Weiner » Wed May 23, 2012 4:52 pm

To expand: The format will be 8 brackets of 8 or 7, with the top two going to the championship group, then next two to the second group, the next two to the third group, and the last one or two to the fourth group. The groups will each be divided into two brackets and play round robins (the fourth group will have byes integrated into their schedule). After the conclusion of the playoff round robins in round 14, all teams in the second through fourth groups are done. The first group will continue with the crossover superplayoffs for the top four teams in each bracket and final placement games for the remaining teams. The superplayoff teams will be ranked by record against other superplayoff teams and then play an ACF-style final (clear by 2 wins outright, ahead by 1 gets advantage in weighted best-of-three, tie played off on one game).

All ties determining which playoff bracket you make out of the prelims, whether or not you make the superplayoffs or a particular championship group playoff game, and whether you make the finals, will be played off, on half or full packets as applicable.

Except for the elimination of the cross-bracket placement games in the non-championship brackets, this format is identical to the one used for the 2010 NSC, but with byes in place of teams 61-64.

Questions about the format itself may be posted here and will be answered; I will also be e-mailing teams directly with the above.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby in on these shenanigans » Wed May 23, 2012 5:47 pm

I count 7 prelim + 7 playoff + 4 super-crossovers + 2 finals = 20 packets necessary before any tiebreakers (+1 All-Star game, I suppose). How many packets total are in the set, and how are the extras being allocated for prelim-into-playoff, playoff-into-superplayoff, and superplayoff-into-finals tiebreaking?
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Auroni » Wed May 23, 2012 6:04 pm

There will be 25 packets in the set.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby jonpin » Wed May 23, 2012 8:01 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:To expand: The format will be 8 brackets of 8 or 7, with the top two going to the championship group, then next two to the second group, the next two to the third group, and the last one or two to the fourth group. The groups will each be divided into two brackets and play round robins (the fourth group will have byes integrated into their schedule). After the conclusion of the playoff round robins in round 14, all teams in the second through fourth groups are done. The first group will continue with the crossover superplayoffs for the top four teams in each bracket and final placement games for the remaining teams. The superplayoff teams will be ranked by record against other superplayoff teams and then play an ACF-style final (clear by 2 wins outright, ahead by 1 gets advantage in weighted best-of-three, tie played off on one game).

All ties determining which playoff bracket you make out of the prelims, whether or not you make the superplayoffs or a particular championship group playoff game, and whether you make the finals, will be played off, on half or full packets as applicable.

Except for the elimination of the cross-bracket placement games in the non-championship brackets, this format is identical to the one used for the 2010 NSC, but with byes in place of teams 61-64.

Questions about the format itself may be posted here and will be answered; I will also be e-mailing teams directly with the above.


So the bottom tier will have two brackets of six teams each, playing five games and two byes? That means teams may get as few as 11 games.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Boeing X-20, Please! » Mon May 28, 2012 8:59 pm

Mike Bentley wrote:
Khanate wrote:What will the distribution (and subdistribution) be?


It will be largely similar to last year, although the specifics will be announced at a later date.


Was this announcement made?
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mike Bentley » Mon May 28, 2012 9:49 pm

Boeing X-20, Please! wrote:
Mike Bentley wrote:
Khanate wrote:What will the distribution (and subdistribution) be?


It will be largely similar to last year, although the specifics will be announced at a later date.


Was this announcement made?


There doesn't seem to be an easy way for me to export it from QEMS, but I've attached a screenshot with the info.

Essentially, the number you should care about is Minimum/Maximum, which says how many questions in a packet are in that particular category. Literature, history and science each have an extra question because they're used as tiebreakers.

Image
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby merv1618 » Tue May 29, 2012 2:36 pm

This may be simply my own ignorance, but what's a concrete definition for "general knowledge" ?
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Tue May 29, 2012 2:42 pm

merv1618 wrote:This may be simply my own ignorance, but what's a concrete definition for "general knowledge" ?


I've never really understood "general knowledge" myself, but in this particular case it's showing up in Mike's screenshot because it's an option in QEMS. Like trash, there is no general knowledge portion of the NSC distribution.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby merv1618 » Tue May 29, 2012 2:44 pm

Thanks!
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby MorganV » Wed May 30, 2012 2:42 pm

Will difficulty increase between the prelims and the playoffs like last year?
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mike Bentley » Wed May 30, 2012 3:08 pm

MorganV wrote:Will difficulty increase between the prelims and the playoffs like last year?


We are not planning on having distinct difficulties between the prelims and playoffs this year.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby The Laughing Cavalier » Wed May 30, 2012 9:49 pm

If you are a coach who has not received a team update from Matt Weiner or a staffer who did not receive an email from me this evening, please let us know ASAP. Thanks!
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mike Bentley » Thu May 31, 2012 12:03 am

Mike Bentley wrote:PACE has posted an updated version of its rules for the 2012 NSC. The updated rules can be found at http://www.pace-nsc.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/PACE-NSC-2012-Rules.doc.

The primary, but not exhaustive, list of changes from last year’s rules are as follows:
1. Clarification of bonus replacement policy. Note that PACE will be issuing follow-up material to better illustrate how bonuses will be replaced in the event of protests, moderator error, or other issues.
2. Revision of the tiebreaking and final placement clauses.
3. Instructions for filing a protest made more explicit.
4. Clarification on player eligibility.
5. Clarification on grounds for protesting tossup questions.


The follow-up material for bonus replacement is a program I wrote, available for download here: http://www.doc-ent.com/quizbowl/PACEBouncebacks.exe. Note that this will only run on PC's, and if it doesn't run, you'll need to install .NET 4.0 framework (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download ... x?id=17851).
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby lchen » Thu May 31, 2012 12:42 am

Mike Bentley wrote:
Mike Bentley wrote:PACE has posted an updated version of its rules for the 2012 NSC. The updated rules can be found at http://www.pace-nsc.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/PACE-NSC-2012-Rules.doc.

The primary, but not exhaustive, list of changes from last year’s rules are as follows:
1. Clarification of bonus replacement policy. Note that PACE will be issuing follow-up material to better illustrate how bonuses will be replaced in the event of protests, moderator error, or other issues.
2. Revision of the tiebreaking and final placement clauses.
3. Instructions for filing a protest made more explicit.
4. Clarification on player eligibility.
5. Clarification on grounds for protesting tossup questions.


The follow-up material for bonus replacement is a program I wrote, available for download here: http://www.doc-ent.com/quizbowl/PACEBouncebacks.exe. Note that this will only run on PC's, and if it doesn't run, you'll need to install .NET 4.0 framework (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download ... x?id=17851).

I was playing around with this and it seems to have an error. If I choose "Team A answered incorrectly; Team B was not given a chance to answer" for part 1 of the original bonus, and "Team A answered incorrectly; Team B answered correctly" for parts 2 and 3 of the original bonus, then under PACE rules, Team A should not be read the replacement bonus and Team B should be able to get 20 points if they get 0-20 on the replacement, or 30 points if they get 30 on the replacement. But if I have Team B only get 10 points on the replacement, the program says Team B should get 10 points. This seems incorrect.

Edit: It seems the program applies the "you can't get less than you would have gotten on the original bonus" rule correctly for Team A but not for Team B.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby fett0001 » Thu May 31, 2012 12:58 am

This is confusingly written.
Section F.5. wrote: Correct answers. On tossups, a correct answer is worth 20 points up to and including a word indicated in the written, but not read, text of the tossup and 10 points after that.


This is obviously supposed to explain powers. Later in the rules it seems that first read syllable after the endmark of the 20 point section ends power, but that's not clear from the rule here, and as far as I can tell, not mentioned anywhere else than in the list of things not protestable.

Section J.6.1 wrote:whether a syllable had been read after the transition from the 20- to 10-point zones of a tossup,
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mike Bentley » Thu May 31, 2012 1:18 am

lchen wrote:
Mike Bentley wrote:
Mike Bentley wrote:PACE has posted an updated version of its rules for the 2012 NSC. The updated rules can be found at http://www.pace-nsc.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/PACE-NSC-2012-Rules.doc.

The primary, but not exhaustive, list of changes from last year’s rules are as follows:
1. Clarification of bonus replacement policy. Note that PACE will be issuing follow-up material to better illustrate how bonuses will be replaced in the event of protests, moderator error, or other issues.
2. Revision of the tiebreaking and final placement clauses.
3. Instructions for filing a protest made more explicit.
4. Clarification on player eligibility.
5. Clarification on grounds for protesting tossup questions.


The follow-up material for bonus replacement is a program I wrote, available for download here: http://www.doc-ent.com/quizbowl/PACEBouncebacks.exe. Note that this will only run on PC's, and if it doesn't run, you'll need to install .NET 4.0 framework (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download ... x?id=17851).

I was playing around with this and it seems to have an error. If I choose "Team A answered incorrectly; Team B was not given a chance to answer" for part 1 of the original bonus, and "Team A answered incorrectly; Team B answered correctly" for parts 2 and 3 of the original bonus, then under PACE rules, Team A should not be read the replacement bonus and Team B should be able to get 20 points if they get 0-20 on the replacement, or 30 points if they get 30 on the replacement. But if I have Team B only get 10 points on the replacement, the program says Team B should get 10 points. This seems incorrect.

Edit: It seems the program applies the "you can't get less than you would have gotten on the original bonus" rule correctly for Team A but not for Team B.


Thanks, I found the error (and if I had been rigidly adhering to static code analysis, I would have caught this in the first place). I have uploaded a fixed version.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mike Bentley » Thu May 31, 2012 1:21 am

fett0001 wrote:This is confusingly written.
Section F.5. wrote: Correct answers. On tossups, a correct answer is worth 20 points up to and including a word indicated in the written, but not read, text of the tossup and 10 points after that.


This is obviously supposed to explain powers. Later in the rules it seems that first read syllable after the endmark of the 20 point section ends power, but that's not clear from the rule here, and as far as I can tell, not mentioned anywhere else than in the list of things not protestable.

Section J.6.1 wrote:whether a syllable had been read after the transition from the 20- to 10-point zones of a tossup,


If I'm understanding your post correctly, this is just two different ways of saying the same thing: there is a mark in tossups where power ends visible to the reader. All answers up to and included the word before the (*) are in power. The first syllable after the (*) and everything thereafter is no longer in power.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby fett0001 » Thu May 31, 2012 2:33 am

I agree with your interpretation, however I think it does not read easily, or could be misunderstood. Maybe my views are skewed from explaining Magic etc to noobs, but simpler, more succinct rules are always better understood. I dunno. Just my two cents.

If I were writing it:

Correct answers are worth 20 points when answered before the first syllable following the silent power mark (*). Afterwards, they are worth 10 points.



edit: Typo
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby SmallerMegalomaniacalPandaOnAbsinthe » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:14 am

Mike Bentley wrote:
We are not planning on having distinct difficulties between the prelims and playoffs this year.


So 2011 NSC actually had distinct difficulties between the two? Superplayoffs packets seemed considerably harder than the rest of the tournament, but it'd be good to have official word about this.
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Re: 2012 NSC: June 9-10 at Washington University in St. Louis

Postby Mechanical Beasts » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:10 pm

SmallerMegalomaniacalPandaOnAbsinthe wrote:
Mike Bentley wrote:
We are not planning on having distinct difficulties between the prelims and playoffs this year.


So 2011 NSC actually had distinct difficulties between the two? Superplayoffs packets seemed considerably harder than the rest of the tournament, but it'd be good to have official word about this.

The intent last year, and we were explicit about this, was to have somewhat harder playoffs/superplayoffs than prelims. The superplayoffs were not consciously designed to be harder than the playoffs.
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