NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6/12)

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NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6/12)

Postby the return of AHAN » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:48 am

This is underway, with the preliminary rounds occurring today, with 10 rounds of History Bowl being played between 1:40 PM and 9:15 PM (approx. end time of round 10).
The main page can be found at; http://historybee.com/live/

Preliminary matches did not have pools with most teams playing 5 rounds, but some, unfortunately, only got 4, as Livermore Valley Charter was a no-show, giving PEARLS Hawthorne only 4 matches, as well as possibly New West Charter, who finished tied for 32nd at 2-3 and 71 points. The tournament staff ruled the scores of those 5 forfeited matches would be however many points the 'winning' team had averaged in their other 4 live matches (this came from the coach of one such-affected team). I don't know how they intend to break the aforementioned tie for 32nd as I can't find the rules. Given I was told (not by an ACE rep) that the top 32 advance, that tie for 32nd becomes an issue. Perhaps an ACE representative such as Eric Huff or Nick Clusserath can explain or correct me.

For those who haven't played History Bowl, the 4-quarter format is unlike anything my team has played before. The 1st ten toss-ups (referred to as an All-Buzz question) were all worth 1 point and that comprised the 1st quarter. Quarter #2 was 5 toss-ups with the chance to answer a bonus (referred to as a Team Buzz question), where the respondent actually had to buzz before answering, though the team had 5 seconds to confer as you would normally expect. Quarter #3 was the 'control' round with each team being asked alternating "team buzz" questions (this concept should ring a bell to anyone who has played Illinois Masonic Bowl) with 5 offered for each team, worth 1 point each. Quarter #4 was ten more All-Buzz questions with an early answer being worth possibly two points, which was referred to as a Super-Buzz. Otherwise the last ten All-Buzz questions were worth 1 point each. In theory, the maximum score would be 45 points, though high 20s tended to be where most of the highest scores were, with a few instances of 31 getting scored.

Action continues Friday with the Geography Olympiad, Citizenship Bee, and Pop Culture Challenge. Bowl playoffs will run Saturday night.

I'll have plenty of my own thoughts (plus things other coaches said) and opinions to share when the event is over and the organizers have had a chance to offer their own reflections on how they felt the event ran.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Great Bustard » Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:26 am

To clarify two things:
1. Livermore Valley Charter was not a no show. They played their round 1 match as a team of two and were notified after round 1 that playing as a team of two was against the rules. They contacted me and were very unhappy, as according to them, they had only been notified of this rule on Monday in an email, and apparently didn't see that rule (they had also booked flights some months ago before the rule was made known). I called them from Thailand at 3:57am 5 minutes after receiving their email (I am running the IHBB Asian Championships here at the moment) and they appreciated my prompt response and understood that I couldn't help them as I have no control over the running of any of the competitions in Chicago.
2. Furthermore, just to make it explicitly clear, neither I, nor NHBB the organization (as distinct from ACE) has anything to do with the running of this event, other than that Brad Fischer is attending as an official representative of NHBB to promote NHBB tournaments and the International History Olympiad, and he and I have discussed some talking points. The ACE/NHBB operating agreement allows for this, as well as the reverse - I gave Eric Huff speaking time at NHBB high school Nationals in April for ACE.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AKKOLADE » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:51 am

Disallowing "incomplete" teams feels very archaic to me.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Geriatric trauma » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:58 am

Yeah, why the hell are teams of two not allowed? Especially for a history-themed competition, where a solo player or two-man team can be very successful (see HS nationals), it seems crazy not to allow those teams to compete. I know I might not have gone to NHBB if I had to find three teammates willing to fly to Chicago for a weekend.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby RexSueciae » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:25 am

Teams of significantly smaller numbers of players --- even solo teams --- have been known to win competitions. (See: Eric Xu clearing the field solo at VCU's 2014 MUT while still in high school.)

The central tenet of quizbowl is to crown a winner among a field of X number of teams, where the winner is demonstrably more knowledgeable than the rest of the field.

I can understand restrictions on the maximum size of a team --- because only four players can play at a time, it is only fair to the players themselves for them to be guaranteed a certain amount of play (add that to the fact that substitutions in quizbowl are nowhere near as common as, say, substitutions in basketball). But arbitrarily disqualifying teams for having too few players makes no sense. Literally nobody does this. To continue the previous example, if VCU had told Eric two years ago that he wasn't allowed to play, the likely results would've been twofold: 1) that particular competition does not succeed in crowning the best quizbowl team, since the best quizbowl team just got disqualified; and 2) presumably, VCU drives off teams from future VCU-hosted events.

We hear time and time again that History Bowl and its related activities are, in fact, quizbowl, due to its content and its overlap with the community. Given that the official rules of History Bowl arguably conflict with the central tenet of quizbowl, is this still the case?
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby cornfused » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:19 am

I'm not sure I agree with your logic there, Vasa - what the ACE folks are claiming is just that Hypothetical Solo Eric Xu isn't within the definition of "team." I don't think anyone objects to the idea of eligibility rules in general... certainly, an elementary school team with Jeff Hoppes as its fourth player would be the most knowledgeable team in the field, but it's not a violation of the central tenets of quizbowl if they aren't allowed to compete.

That being said, this is a really stupid eligibility rule, and it does reek of the last decade and of conference play run on Questions Galore sets.

More relevantly, also, this situation wouldn't have happened if the ACE reps had been anything less than terrible at communication, which is an issue that we're seeing on multiple fronts.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby RexSueciae » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:46 pm

cornfused wrote:I'm not sure I agree with your logic there, Vasa - what the ACE folks are claiming is just that Hypothetical Solo Eric Xu isn't within the definition of "team." I don't think anyone objects to the idea of eligibility rules in general... certainly, an elementary school team with Jeff Hoppes as its fourth player would be the most knowledgeable team in the field, but it's not a violation of the central tenets of quizbowl if they aren't allowed to compete.


That isn't my point at all. Nobody believes that eligibility rules in general are bad, but arbitrary ones which do not exist in any other field and which only serve to keep out fairly mundane teams are against the spirit of the game.

Jeff Hoppes is ineligible to play at elementary school tournaments, or any level of tournament that isn't Open since he's not currently affiliated with any quizbowl-playing institution. However, a hypothetical solo team (or maybe a team of two players) otherwise unremarkable would be allowed at every other event except this one. I'm not sure what motivated a rule mandating minimum team size, or why this was not communicated clearly to all parties beforehand.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Cody » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:04 pm

VHSL Scholastic Bowl requires that a school have 4 players to start a match, otherwise they must forfeit.

This has been widely regarded as a bad move, and the same is true of this rule—there's no reason to bar a team from competing because they don't have four players! Especially after they've shown up and are playing your tournament, and disqualifying them results in weirdness in your tournament schedule!
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby gettysburg11 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:22 pm

Yeah, I know it's been said plenty, but barring teams of less than 4 from playing is a really really bad idea. A large portion of the high school and college tournaments I've played have been as a team of 3, simply because that was all the people I could get due to other commitments. It would be wholly unfair to tell teams they cannot play just because they don't have 4 players, because life happens sometimes. And these are elementary/middle school students! I can't imagine how I (and my parents, for that matter) would have reacted if I ever found myself in such a situation. This policy should be changed immediately, and in my opinion (take it or leave it), any affected teams should receive at minimum a formal apology, if not a refund of their entrance fees.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby bluejay123 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:43 pm

What was the resolution to this?
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby tuscumbiaqb » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:13 pm

I'll add to the chorus of voices and reiterate that this is a bad policy and needs to be changed immediately.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Irreligion in Bangladesh » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:37 pm

Cody wrote:VHSL Scholastic Bowl requires that a school have 4 players to start a match, otherwise they must forfeit.

This has been widely regarded as a bad move, and the same is true of this rule—there's no reason to bar a team from competing because they don't have four players! Especially after they've shown up and are playing your tournament, and disqualifying them results in weirdness in your tournament schedule!


The IHSA has a similar rule; you gotta start with 5, but if you have to dip below that mid-match, that's not a problem. I led a discussion at the IHSA Advisory Committee this year to change that such that shorthanded teams are still eligible; they wouldn't enact a change to allow small teams to play, and it was infuriating. (Though now it's OK if you start with 4, because now the IHSA considers 4v4 matches Scholastic Bowl.)
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Cody » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:53 pm

Irreligion in Bangladesh wrote:
Cody wrote:VHSL Scholastic Bowl requires that a school have 4 players to start a match, otherwise they must forfeit.

This has been widely regarded as a bad move, and the same is true of this rule—there's no reason to bar a team from competing because they don't have four players! Especially after they've shown up and are playing your tournament, and disqualifying them results in weirdness in your tournament schedule!


The IHSA has a similar rule; you gotta start with 5, but if you have to dip below that mid-match, that's not a problem. I led a discussion at the IHSA Advisory Committee this year to change that such that shorthanded teams are still eligible; they wouldn't enact a change to allow small teams to play, and it was infuriating. (Though now it's OK if you start with 4, because now the IHSA considers 4v4 matches Scholastic Bowl.)
Exactly how VHSL currently works—which is likewise insane. If it is implicitly allowed that a team may continue a match with less than 5 players, then why must they start? Even disregarding all facets of common sense—what happens if your 4th has a medical emergency during the tournament (a not unheard of situation)? You must forfeit the rest of your matches! :capybara:
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:39 pm

bluejay123 wrote:What was the resolution to this?

Of what? As Mr. Madden mentioned, Livermore Valley Charter was booted from the tourney.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AZQuizbowl » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:47 pm

Sunol Glen of California also ran into this last minute rule change issue regarding their team. Of their two-person team, one student was flown there solely to participate in the Bowl, and their team was disqualified in round 2.
(EDIT: It has come to my attention that Sunol Glen and Livermore Valley Charter are the same team)

Also, I feel like if Dave is going to make a big deal of distancing himself and disavowing the stuff ACE is running, he might want to make sure his website is actually updated with the correct information, because it says here that NHBB "oversees" the EMS divisions of the Bee and "organizes" the Bowl.

It also seems weird that if ACE is the one running this that Dave would call THEIR customers from Thailand to help resolve issues, even if it was to tell them that he, personally, couldn't do anything?
Last edited by AZQuizbowl on Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Auks Ran Ova » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:55 pm

Incredible! This has to be one of the rock-stupidest customer relations decisions in quizbowl history. How on earth do you think it's the smart decision to disqualify teams (1) after they've already flown across the country to your tournament (2) based on a rule that's already out of sync with basically every other legitimate national quizbowl event? It seems insane to do anything other than just waive the rule and worry about it later.

Edit: also what's with renaming every aspect of the game itself? Calling something an "all-buzz" instead of a tossup or whatever does nothing but distance this particular event from everything else in the quizbowl world.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AZQuizbowl » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:00 pm

Auks Ran Ova wrote: (2) based on a rule that's already out of sync with basically every other legitimate national quizbowl event?


A rule that wasn't even made known, according to many teams, until Monday morning and it was in the body of a lengthy email and therefore, easily missed.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby yellow7206 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:33 pm

Personally, I think a team should play with any number of members.

That said, there were teams on standby, including ours, in case teams did not show. Staff should have known ahead of time if teams were in fact ineligible by having too few team members. Standby teams then could have replaced them. We waited for 2 hours before Eric Huff told us just before prelims started that they didn't have a place for us only to read on this forum that teams were disqualified during play.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby bdavery » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:47 pm

My kids played the Bee on Friday. The questions were good IMO, and some players are truly amazing.

My only complaint is--when you have 400 kids in a division, is there really any reason that a single group of 10 kids must basically play each other for 4 of the 5 rounds ?

I understand the seeding may play a part in that, but still, I would think a little better mixing would be relatively easy to do. If nothing else, it would give the kids in the middle and the bottom of the division the chance to at least be spanked by a different couple of kids each game.

And yeah..I feel terrible for the teams hosed by the < 4-person rule. I can see where ACE would say, "The 1-person event is the Bee, so play that if you can't get a team together." But if you have 2 from the same school, let them play in the Bowl. Two people who think they can beat four ought to be given the opportunity.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby bluejay123 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:10 pm

Auks Ran Ova wrote:
Edit: also what's with renaming every aspect of the game itself? Calling something an "all-buzz" instead of a tossup or whatever does nothing but distance this particular event from everything else in the quizbowl world.


Yeah that's what I was wondering. Like if you really want the MS kids to have a smooth transition into the high school NHBB division, why don't you just utilize the same scoring system and such??
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby bluejay123 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:12 pm

the return of AHAN wrote:
bluejay123 wrote:What was the resolution to this?

Of what? As Mr. Madden mentioned, Livermore Valley Charter was booted from the tourney.


Sorry; I meant the resolution to the tie.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby RobinReplogle » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:24 pm

So, I am the parent of the two kids from Livermore Valley Charter School (that got the boot). I wanted to post my two cents. We purchased our tickets to Chicago back in March. This email that was sent on Monday was the first time we could have been aware of the rule change. The reality is that we did not have any knowledge of the rule change prior to the protest in the second round. When we checked in, we gave the name of the TWO kids on the team. No one objected. When the kids played in the first round, no one objected. It is my fault for not checking the Monday email carefully. But since there were teams of ONE playing last year in the bowl, I would have never imagine that they would have made such a serious rule change without publicizing it all over the website- not burying it in the middle of a rules page to which one had to follow a link. After the debacle, we spoke with many other families and NO one was aware of the change prior to the Monday email. Remember, we purchased our tickets back in March.

The reason we play with 2 players? Because our school is rather apathetic in this subject and we have not been able to find any other kids that were willing to fly to Chicago. We would love to have a team of 3, 4, or 5. But it didn't happen. We came to Chicago knowing the odds. What we didn't know was that Eric Huff was going to do this. The result? Two very upset kids. They did refund our entry fee for the Bowl. I would like them to refund the value of one plane ticket because the only reason my daughter came, was to play in the Bowl. How about I get her ticket paid for?

As far as David Madden, I do not know all the undercurrents going on, but I did very much appreciate him calling me. All these Quiz Bowls, History Bowls/Bees, Academic Bowls and Bees have been a huge part of my son's life and we love them. But I am very angry at the way this situation was handled. I just wanted to make sure the facts were straight. Thanks.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Monstruos de Bolsillo » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:56 pm

Requiring a certain number of people on a team seems like an indication of bad quizbowl, archaic formats, and televised game-showy competitions. Our county league requires a minimum of six members for each Varsity team to play, which could potentially be a problem for a really small charter school or something. It seems rather counterintuitive.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:33 pm

bluejay123 wrote:
the return of AHAN wrote:
bluejay123 wrote:What was the resolution to this?

Of what? As Mr. Madden mentioned, Livermore Valley Charter was booted from the tourney.


Sorry; I meant the resolution to the tie.


Do not know. It's only an issue if what I was told by a non-staffer was correct (that 32 qualify for playoffs). As soon as the playoff pools are posted, we'll know, I suppose. I keep hitting refresh and will continue to do so.
Meantime, the Geography Olympiad was conducted this morning and the results of the buzzer rounds and Map Challenge are posted. The US Geography and World Geography multiple choice tests haven't been posted yet. Not sure if there's a hiccup in scoring, or if they're withholding those scores pending a formal announcement.


EDIT: Forgot to mention that, besides the minimum of three on a team, there is also a maximum of five on a team for the History Bowl, with no subs permitted at any point in a match. Upon learning that, I went ahead and sent a kid home after our 2nd match (At least I didn't have to explain it to his parents since it was my son :wink: ).
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant » Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:00 pm

the return of AHAN wrote:EDIT: Forgot to mention that, besides the minimum of three on a team, there is also a maximum of five on a team for the History Bowl, with no subs permitted at any point in a match. Upon learning that, I went ahead and sent a kid home after our 2nd match (At least I didn't have to explain it to his parents since it was my son :wink: ).

Nice. (eta because I just realised this could be misinterpreted-- I am just amused by that last bit, and not necessarily in approval of the rest of the post)

There have been many, many times while scorekeeping at various nationals that I've wished that NAQT would put maximum limits on team size, but obviously any hypothetical rule change like that would need to be broadcast before the event loudly and constantly.
(This is me being a grumpy scorekeeper (and, in the past, statskeeper), and I can imagine reasons why clubs may want a bunch of students to participate in the tournament without fielding additional teams)

The minimum size restrictions are, of course, terrible.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Rococo A Go Go » Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:23 am

I would argue that the enforcement of the "minimum number of players" rule at this tournament is outright unethical. If this was a longstanding rule it would merely be a bad rule that should be changed, but in this case it's basically been sprung on teams and then used to knock somebody out of a tournament for which they invested a lot of time and money to attend. I understand that a defense can be mounted about how teams were notified beforehand, but if you aren't completely upfront about something this major, then it's a sign of very poor decision making by the people in charge.

A refund and an apology to Livermore is a good start, but people should think twice about attending events run by ACE if they are going to treat their customers like this. It's not a matter of changing bad rules, which they should also do, but practicing at least some basic standard of customer service which avoids upsetting middle school kids because you can't be bothered to properly tell them their school is ineligible.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Sima Guang Hater » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:51 am

EDIT: I'm told NHBB didn't set this rule, so this falls on ACE's shoulders instead. Granted, some blame should be placed on NHBB for granting the rights to the tournament without having control of the rules.

You were one of us once, Nick Clusserath - Dorman A, D2 ICT 2nd place, have you forgotten? You should be ashamed of yourself for propagating bad quizbowl norms like this, and especially for taking away the ability to compete from children using an obfuscated and poorly-thought-out technicality. You may have damaged these kids' love of NHBB in particular and academic competition in general because of what you've done, and that's a travesty.

If you have any care for good quizbowl, or even any shred of human decency left, you would refund these people their money, issue a public apology, and excise this rule from the books.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Geriatric trauma » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:56 am

The Quest for the Historical Mukherjesus wrote:You were one of us once, Nick Clusserath - Dorman A, D2 ICT 2nd place, have you forgotten? You should be ashamed of yourself for propagating bad quizbowl norms like this, and especially for taking away the ability to compete from children using an obfuscated and poorly-thought-out technicality.

More than that, Nick is a member of PACE and was a great help in coordinating staff for and running NSC last weekend. I don't doubt his ability to run good quizbowl tournaments, which is part of why I'm so confused and disappointed that this happened.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Benin Rebirth Party » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:50 pm

What was the format of the preliminary rounds? 52 teams, 5 rounds of...something, cut to top 32 elimination also seems quite archaic. Also if you're seeding by ppg strength of schedule becomes a lot more relevant than it does at PACE or HSNCT since there is much less contribution from bonuses.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby centralhs » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:21 pm

RobinReplogle wrote:So, I am the parent of the two kids from Livermore Valley Charter School (that got the boot). I wanted to post my two cents. We purchased our tickets to Chicago back in March. This email that was sent on Monday was the first time we could have been aware of the rule change. The reality is that we did not have any knowledge of the rule change prior to the protest in the second round. When we checked in, we gave the name of the TWO kids on the team. No one objected. When the kids played in the first round, no one objected. It is my fault for not checking the Monday email carefully. But since there were teams of ONE playing last year in the bowl, I would have never imagine that they would have made such a serious rule change without publicizing it all over the website- not burying it in the middle of a rules page to which one had to follow a link. After the debacle, we spoke with many other families and NO one was aware of the change prior to the Monday email. Remember, we purchased our tickets back in March.

The reason we play with 2 players? Because our school is rather apathetic in this subject and we have not been able to find any other kids that were willing to fly to Chicago. We would love to have a team of 3, 4, or 5. But it didn't happen. We came to Chicago knowing the odds. What we didn't know was that Eric Huff was going to do this. The result? Two very upset kids. They did refund our entry fee for the Bowl. I would like them to refund the value of one plane ticket because the only reason my daughter came, was to play in the Bowl. How about I get her ticket paid for?

Students (and their parents) who flew all the way from California to Chicago only to be disqualified after the event began because of a (non-sensical) rule that was not announced prior to the week of the event should absolutely have their plane fare 100% paid for.

My school did not enter a team in the History Bowl but a number of our students came to Chicago to participate in the Bee this year. After hearing of this unfortunate situation, I would be extremely hesitant to recommend this event to my students in the future.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby alexdz » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:48 pm

This rule, and the decision that resulted from its application, is not going to go well towards creating a pathway for elementary and middle school students to become enthusiastic about quizbowl. Those involved have really gotten themselves into a bad situation.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:52 pm

raffi_-_c-a-n-a-d-a.mp3 wrote:What was the format of the preliminary rounds? 52 teams, 5 rounds of...something, cut to top 32 elimination also seems quite archaic. Also if you're seeding by ppg strength of schedule becomes a lot more relevant than it does at PACE or HSNCT since there is much less contribution from bonuses.

We played 5 rounds Thursday against opponents assigned, seemingly at random, though I suspect they may have tried to avoid certain top shelf quizbowl teams facing each other, yet Aptakisic JHS of Buffalo Grove, IL, last year's champion of IESA quizbowl but never attends MSNCT, drew a match-up against this year's MSNCT Champion, Middlesex. Perhaps such match-ups are unavoidable, though, particularly since there were no regional bowl events to help with seeding for this history-specific event. Not really a huge concern as far as I can tell.

The History Bowl playoffs, starting at 6:20 PM tonight as follows;
(1) Trinity Prep vs. (32) winner of tiebreak Great Valley MS/New West Charter
(2) Bay Area Gifted Homeschoolers (I think this is Pi-oneers) vs. (31) Sycamore
(3) Stoller MS (A) vs. (30) Bethel MS
(4) Aptakisic JHS vs. (29) Sunol Glen
(5) John Addams vs. (28) St. James Cathedral
(6) BASIS Silicon Valley vs. (27) Eagle Hill
(7) Daniel Wright JHS (A) vs. (26) Daniel Wright JHS (B)
(8) Station MS vs. (25) Ransom Everglades MS
(9) Midtown Classical vs. (24) Olentangy Berkshire MS
(10) Burleigh Manor (A) vs. (23) High Country Home Educatores
(11) Middlesex MS vs. (22) Winburn MS
(12) Tenafly MS vs. (21) Stoller MS (B)
(13) Hadley JHS vs. (20) Hopkins JHS
(14) Gilman vs. (19) Nysmith School for the Gifted (A)
(15) Cavallini MS vs. (18) Harker
(16) Nysmith School for the Gifted (B) vs. (17) Challenger Ardenwood

I'm assuming this is a single-elimination tourney, given there are times for 5 rounds listed on the schedule grid.
Jeff Price, Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Haaaaaaaarry Whiiiiiiiiiite » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:01 pm

the return of AHAN wrote:
raffi_-_c-a-n-a-d-a.mp3 wrote:What was the format of the preliminary rounds? 52 teams, 5 rounds of...something, cut to top 32 elimination also seems quite archaic. Also if you're seeding by ppg strength of schedule becomes a lot more relevant than it does at PACE or HSNCT since there is much less contribution from bonuses.

We played 5 rounds Thursday against opponents assigned, seemingly at random, though I suspect they may have tried to avoid certain top shelf quizbowl teams facing each other, yet Aptakisic JHS of Buffalo Grove, IL, last year's champion of IESA quizbowl but never attends MSNCT, drew a match-up against this year's MSNCT Champion, Middlesex. Perhaps such match-ups are unavoidable, though, particularly since there were no regional bowl events to help with seeding for this history-specific event. Not really a huge concern as far as I can tell.


Sounds like they copied the schedule format directly from :chip:
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Benin Rebirth Party » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:12 pm

the return of AHAN wrote:seemingly at random


I thought this was standard NHBB fare (which happened at some 7-9 team fields at some local tournaments), due to a restriction on the number of packets and the fact you got to get through a bowl and a bee all in one day; however this shouldn't also be happening at nationals.

The individual team schedules says teams played 5 games in 10 rounds. Was that because of a room and/or staffer shortage?
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:36 pm

raffi_-_c-a-n-a-d-a.mp3 wrote:
the return of AHAN wrote:seemingly at random


I thought this was standard NHBB fare (which happened at some 7-9 team fields at some local tournaments), due to a restriction on the number of packets and the fact you got to get through a bowl and a bee all in one day; however this shouldn't also be happening at nationals.


It is standard fare at NHBB high school regional events, unless it's a 6-team tournament (full round robin, of course) or the like. And indeed, NHBB high school nationals goes to pools, rebracketed into pools, rebracketed into pools, and only then rebracketed into an 8-team single elim bracket. (Or at least it did this year; that discussion of double-elim after this year's nats was good and we're working on implementation.)
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Full results of yesterday and today's History Bee preliminary rounds, all 1,081 students across elementary, 7th, and 8th grade divisions, can be found at historybee.com/live
I'm told the top 64 from each level advance to the playoffs tomorrow. :party:
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AKKOLADE » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:14 pm

I'll cast my lot in that the team(s) rejected should have their entry fee refunded and be reimbursed for expenditures like hotels and airfare.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:40 pm

Same.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:04 pm

Elite Eight of the History Bowl was as follows...

(17) Challenger Ardenwood vs
(9) Midtown Classical

(13) Hadley JHS
(5) John Adams MS

(10) Burleigh Manor A
(2) Bay Area Gifted Middle Schoolers (Pi-oneers)

(3) Stoller (A)
(6) BASIS Silicon Valley

UPDATE: Hadley JHS went through to the semifinals, 21-18.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Anuj » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:20 pm

Challenger-Ardenwood also won their quarterfinal round and will be playing Hadley in the semis.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Jeremy Gibbs Paradox » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:39 pm

TINA! BRING ME THE AXE!!!!

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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Adventure Temple Trail » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:51 pm

Is there a reason tossups are worth only 1 point in the Bowl? Just to keep things consistent with the Bee?
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Great Bustard » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:52 am

Irreligion in Bangladesh wrote:
raffi_-_c-a-n-a-d-a.mp3 wrote:
the return of AHAN wrote:seemingly at random


I thought this was standard NHBB fare (which happened at some 7-9 team fields at some local tournaments), due to a restriction on the number of packets and the fact you got to get through a bowl and a bee all in one day; however this shouldn't also be happening at nationals.


It is standard fare at NHBB high school regional events, unless it's a 6-team tournament (full round robin, of course) or the like. And indeed, NHBB high school nationals goes to pools, rebracketed into pools, rebracketed into pools, and only then rebracketed into an 8-team single elim bracket. (Or at least it did this year; that discussion of double-elim after this year's nats was good and we're working on implementation.)


(edited for clarity) This is not, in fact standard fare at regionals. At any regional event where we have prior results to go off (which is to say, nearly all of them, at this point) teams are indeed seeded - matches are not just assigned at random. Getting 5 matches at regionals is standard fare - the reason there aren't more of course is as Joe mentions, due to the need to get through the Bee, as well as do the US Geography Olympiad and US History Bee exams at lunch. I'll have more to say on everything that's been going on this weekend later, once I decompress after our IHBB Asian Championships (which included to the best of my knowledge, the largest ever pyramidal all-subject quiz bowl tournament outside North America on Friday, our Academic Bowl of Asia in which 23 teams competed).
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby swimmerstar » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:45 am

Who won the Bowl?
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:32 am

the return of AHAN wrote:Elite Eight of the History Bowl was as follows...

(17) Challenger Ardenwood vs
(9) Midtown Classical

(13) Hadley JHS
(5) John Adams MS

(10) Burleigh Manor A
(2) Bay Area Gifted Middle Schoolers (Pi-oneers)

(3) Stoller (A)
(6) BASIS Silicon Valley

UPDATE: Hadley JHS went through to the semifinals, 21-18.

Semifinals:
(17) Challenger Ardenwood vs.
(13) Hadley JHS

(2) Bay Area Gifted Middle Schoolers (Pi-oneers) vs.
(6) BASIS Silicon Valley

Finals:
(13) Hadley JHS vs.
(6) BASIS Silicon Valley
with BASIS Silicon Valley claiming the 2016 History Bowl Championship
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:05 am

Great Bustard wrote:(snip) At any regional event where we have prior results to go off (which is to say, nearly all of them, at this point) teams are indeed seeded - matches are not just assigned at random. Getting 5 matches at regionals is standard fare - the reason there aren't more of course is as Joe mentions, due to the need to get through the Bee, as well as do the US Geography Olympiad and US History Bee exams at lunch. .

And I didn't mean to imply they really did draw matches at random, rather, given there was no qualification process, there was no evidence of a formal seeding process. It's sort of like when I have my tournament and I place teams in pools; I often have nothing to go on other than reputation and past performance, and often look to ensure a geographical spread within each pool (conference opponents are almost never pooled). My educated guess is the organizers did the same. If there was a formal seeding process at play, I'd be interested to hear about it.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:40 pm

The #1 seeds at all three levels of the History Bee won their respective national championships.
Congratulations to;
Elementary Champion Robert Muniz of Midtown Classical of Talahassee, FL
7th Grade Champion Enzo Cunanan of Trinity Prep of Winter Park, FL
& 8th Grade Champion Govind Prabhakar of Aptakisic JHS of Buffalo Grove, IL

An impressive display of excellence by all players!

Give credit where it's due; the fact that the top players from the preliminary rounds ALL finished as champions certainly validates the efficacy of the entire process.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AZQuizbowl » Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:51 pm

Great Bustard wrote: IHBB Asian Championships (which included to the best of my knowledge, the largest ever pyramidal all-subject quiz bowl tournament outside North America on Friday, our Academic Bowl of Asia in which 23 teams competed).


To the best of my knowledge, the previous record is 14 teams at the 2015 Concordia Shanghai Invitational, which featured teams from China, Singapore, Hong Kong, and the Philippines.

IHBB's Academic Bowl featured 23 teams from Japan, Hong Kong, Korea, China, Singapore, and Thailand.

It would be nice to see these teams' participation translate to HSNCT and MSNCT.
Last edited by AZQuizbowl on Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Unicolored Jay » Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:58 pm

AZQuizbowl wrote:
Great Bustard wrote: IHBB Asian Championships (which included to the best of my knowledge, the largest ever pyramidal all-subject quiz bowl tournament outside North America on Friday, our Academic Bowl of Asia in which 23 teams competed).


To the best of my knowledge, the previous record is 14 teams at the 2015 Concordia Shanghai Invitational, which featured teams from China, Singapore, Hong Kong, and the Philippines.

IHBB's Academic Bowl featured 23 teams from Japan, Hong Kong, Korea, China, Singapore, and Thailand.

It would be nice to see these teams' participation translate to HSNCT.


Asian teams do attend HSNCT/NSC from time to time - for example, Singapore American sent two teams to NSC this year, with their A team finishing 16th, and they and Shanghai American Puxi also attended in the previous year. I'm pretty sure at least Shanghai has attended HSNCT in the past, too.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AZQuizbowl » Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:04 pm

Unicolored Jay wrote:
AZQuizbowl wrote:
Great Bustard wrote: IHBB Asian Championships (which included to the best of my knowledge, the largest ever pyramidal all-subject quiz bowl tournament outside North America on Friday, our Academic Bowl of Asia in which 23 teams competed).


To the best of my knowledge, the previous record is 14 teams at the 2015 Concordia Shanghai Invitational, which featured teams from China, Singapore, Hong Kong, and the Philippines.

IHBB's Academic Bowl featured 23 teams from Japan, Hong Kong, Korea, China, Singapore, and Thailand.

It would be nice to see these teams' participation translate to HSNCT.


Asian teams do attend HSNCT/NSC from time to time - for example, Singapore American sent two teams to NSC this year, with their A team finishing 16th, and they and Shanghai American Puxi also attended in the previous year. I'm pretty sure at least Shanghai has attended HSNCT in the past, too.


Certainly, though I'm hoping that since we're seeing growth overseas with whatever strange format IHBB is using, we will also see it translate to increased participation at PACE, HSNCT, and even MSNCT (seeing as how [edit: almost half] of these 23 teams are actually middle school teams).
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