Chatham (NJ) Academic Tournament IV - May 22, 2010

[ChathamNJ]

Chatham High School will hold its fourth annual Chatham Academic Tournament on Saturday, May 22. We will use NAQT set IS-95.

Our format will be similar to last year's CAT III, which featured the following:

- Premier Division: schools may enter only their A team into this, which features 5 or 6 guaranteed games against other Premier teams
- Main Division: unlimited entries featuring 5 guaranteed games against other Main teams
- single-elimination playoffs including all Premier teams and the top n Main teams
- optional consolation game for non-playoff teams during the first playoff round
- (we'll give teams the option of playing additional NAQT games after they're eliminated, but in the past nobody wanted to play more than one)
- Freshman Divison using Speed Check questions: ideal for newbies, but experienced youngsters are encouraged to enter the Main Division
---- middle school teams are requested to have at least one adult in the game room with them at all times, not just someone in the building
- house-written Jeopardy-style trash rounds for eliminated teams
- outstanding bagels

Fees are $80 for the first team, $70 for additional teams, with $10 discounts for moderators and buzzers. Moderators will also receive a free copy of both question sets.

For a registration form, please email sfinemanATchathamHYPHENnjDOTorg.

Expressions of interest are certainly welcome on this board, but only registration forms received via email, fax, or USPS will be considered official.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

Chatham High School will hold its fourth annual Chatham Academic Tournament on Saturday, May 22. We will use NAQT set IS-95.

Our format will be similar to last year's CAT III, which featured the following:

- Premier Division: schools may enter only their A team into this, which features 5 or 6 guaranteed games against other Premier teams
- Main Division: unlimited entries featuring 5 guaranteed games against other Main teams
- single-elimination playoffs including all Premier teams and the top n Main teams
- optional consolation game for non-playoff teams during the first playoff round
- (we'll give teams the option of playing additional NAQT games after they're eliminated, but in the past nobody wanted to play more than one)
- Freshman Divison using Speed Check questions: ideal for newbies, but experienced youngsters are encouraged to enter the Main Division
---- middle school teams are requested to have at least one adult in the game room with them at all times, not just someone in the building
- house-written Jeopardy-style trash rounds for eliminated teams
- outstanding bagels

Fees are $80 for the first team, $70 for additional teams, with $10 discounts for moderators and buzzers. Moderators will also receive a free copy of both question sets.

For a registration form, please email sfinemanATchathamHYPHENnjDOTorg.

Expressions of interest are certainly welcome on this board, but only registration forms received via email, fax, or USPS will be considered official.

So, a team would have to pay 80 dollars just to play "5 or 6" guaranteed games? Then single-elimination playoffs? This could be a really great event but some of these stipulations are just... not good.

Speed Check questions are not ideal for anyone, let alone new players! You eliminate teams, also, and then say "come play Jeopardy-style trash rounds!"

Please please PLEASE consider a round-robin schedule and you'll have some great teams come to this. It's not even that far away for us and we'd think about coming! But not under these present conditions which are the antithesis to good quizbowl in many many ways.

[Mechanical Beasts]

Yeah, the best thing New Jersey can do is move past its Jeopardy-style fixation.

[ChathamNJ]

So, a team would have to pay 80 dollars just to play "5 or 6" guaranteed games?

Allow me to clarify - that's 5 or 6 guaranteed prelim games against other Premier teams, with zero prelim games played against non-Premier teams. Compare to a typical bracket where the top teams are guaranteed _not_ to play the other top teams until after lunch.

Then single-elimination playoffs? This could be a really great event but some of these stipulations are just... not good.

I understand the criticisms of single-elimination, but it has received favorable feedback from our past attendees and has worked well given the size of our fields.

Speed Check questions are not ideal for anyone, let alone new players! You eliminate teams, also, and then say "come play Jeopardy-style trash rounds!"

Perhaps "ideal" was the wrong word, but I do feel that the Speed Check questions are a great introduction for students who have never played quizbowl before. The teams from North Babylon and Pingry in particular have been highly complimentary of our Freshman Division the past two years; their A teams have not suffered any scars since.

Please please PLEASE consider a round-robin schedule and you'll have some great teams come to this. It's not even that far away for us and we'd think about coming! But not under these present conditions which are the antithesis to good quizbowl in many many ways.

Obviously I hope you'll decide to come. I wanted folks on the board to know what our plans are so you can make an informed decision. And if you choose not to join us, know there are no hard feelings. However, please know that the following very strong teams have attended at least two of the three previous CATs (implying they liked it enough to come back):

Bergen County Academies
Delbarton
East Brunswick
Livingston
Millburn
Newark Academy
Pingry
Seton Hall Prep

Last year's field also included Hunter, Kellenberg, St. Joseph's, and Stuyvesant as first-timers.

Our goal is to provide a competitive and enjoyable experience for a wide range of teams. No doubt this format is unconventional compared to well-seeded round-robin pools, but it's an attempt to get as many competitive games as we can without a morning full of blowouts or worrying whether fatigued teams will leave after lunch. The feedback I've received from CAT I-III has been nearly 100% positive, so we'll keep doing it this way until that changes.

Yeah, the best thing New Jersey can do is move past its Jeopardy-style fixation.

If I'm not mistaken, the academic portion of this tournament has featured the second-largest field of any non-Chip, non-Jeopardy tournament in NJ for each of the last three years (only Princeton has attracted more teams). So I hope I'm correct in interpreting Andy's comment as a show of support for CAT IV!

As I mentioned in my original post, non-playoff teams *are* given the option of playing more NAQT consolation rounds instead of having fun with trash - but it seems to be the prevailing opinion of many teams that enough is enough after a certain point. If by offering trash in the afternoon we can get more teams trying NAQT questions in the morning, that sounds like a good form of outreach!

[Ondes Martenot]

I understand the criticisms of single-elimination, but it...has worked well given the size of our fields.

I'm not sure what this means. You obviously have enough staff to run what essentially is round robin in the prelims (round robin as in all the teams will be playing) so you have the staff to handle round robin playoffs. In terms of time issues, if you do a single elim playoffs of 16 teams (which from the past is what I assume you have planned), that's four rounds of playoffs. Round robin would probably be like five rounds, so you're basically just adding only one more game onto your schedule ( perhaps another two if you need to have a finals).

[jonpin]

I've got a couple comments here. These aren't meant to jump on you all at once, they're meant to encourage you to run a better tournament.

The Premier/Main split, I understand what you're doing. It is something that I don't disapprove of, since all premier teams move on to the playoffs, and this region doesn't otherwise have a pre-nationals elite tournament.
The Freshman Division with speed check, though, is bad. Speed Check questions are terrible. At times, it seems, intentionally so. You don't learn anything from them, and that's the whole educational point of quiz bowl. They don't distinguish the more knowledgeable team, and that's the whole competitive point of quiz bowl. And they don't get students ready for actual quiz bowl, because a team that just plays Speed Checks will get to IS series and think "These questions go on FOREVER."
Consolation games: I'm a believer in the idea of "If you schedule it, they will play." Last week, Bloomfield didn't schedule any consolation games, not even a third-place game. Teams may not have been happy, but they went home. In October, Kellenberg held three rounds of consolation games for all teams. Only a few teams went home beforehand. The problem with unscheduled consolation games "if you want them" is that most likely they are terribly unstructured. Especially if you're running trash rounds at the same time, as I seem to recall some comments after last year's tournament, that teams who wanted to play academic rounds were pushed to the side so that the trash rounds could be started first. [I am not positive about that last bit, but I seem to recall it happening]

However, please know that the following very strong teams have attended at least two of the three previous CATs (implying they liked it enough to come back): I hope BCA doesn't feel I'm unauthorized in speaking for them when I say that the team's feeling is that playing quiz bowl is better than not playing quiz bowl. If we didn't play Chatham, there would be no other place to hear these questions closer than Cornell.
the academic portion of this tournament has featured the second-largest field of any non-Chip, non-Jeopardy tournament in NJ for each of the last three years (only Princeton has attracted more teams): No offense, but there are like six of those things in total.

Last but not least:
Fees are $80 for the first team. Given the 5 guaranteed games that a team in the Main division has, I invite you to compare this to the list compiled at the bottom of this post. Pinyan's Law of a rough inverse relationship between entry fee and number of games guaranteed continues to hold.

[Guybo]

With all due respect to the Bergen Academies and other strong teams, Livingston has been to the Chatham tournament every year and has had a very good experience each time. It is well run and, most importantly, caters to all levels of competition from the weaker teams to the good but not premier teams to the stronger, national caliber teams. The vast majority of the teams that compete fall into the first and second category while only a handful will fit the final category. Livingston usually has fairly strong teams but not necessarily national caliber and I think it is great for all of my teams to get a good experience and compete against all levels of competition... so I think they way it's set up is well done and generally well organized. I like the A team to be challenged by the premier teams and the other teams to play everyone else.

Also, to imply that your team goes to Chatham simply because there's nowhere else to go is a thought that really has no place on this forum and is either best left to yourself or for your team to just not come.

Lastly, it is a perspective held by many- particularly the stronger teams- that the perceived value of the tournament is based on the cost of the tournament and the number of guaranteed games (aka here on the forum as "Pinyan's Law"). I disagree with this premise. As someone who runs a tournament, I believe it is important to balance many factors including number of games, overall organization, quality of the breakfast provided, among other things. Most teams (not all, of course) and coaches don't want to have to stay until 6PM and play a zillion games (which can get tedious and tiring after about 7,8 or so) or later and to try to keep things tightly run, on as close to schedule as possible and hopefully having the finals end by 5:00 at the latest. Also, remember that this is a fundraiser for teams, most of which get very little to no funding form their schools, so to pay another $10 to $20 is no big deal, I think. Give teams credit for trying to fundraise at all. Thus, I beleive, in the end there are many things to take into account to run a good tournament, not just number of games and cost.

We're looking forward to another year at Chatham. Let's rant agianst Christie for taking away school funding instead of at each other's tournaments!

User was banned for 1 day for attempting to tell other people what they may post. --the mgmt

[jonpin]

Just for the record, I will clarify that I am not officially speaking on behalf of the team. I am merely noting that our quiz bowl team, being a quiz bowl team, likes to play quiz bowl, and thus plays quiz bowl when the opportunity presents itself.

My idea that "the perceived value of the tournament is based on the cost of the tournament and the number of guaranteed games" is predicated on the idea that a quiz bowl tournament is primarily organized to play quiz bowl. Yes, providing breakfast is good. Yes, organization is good, although I'm not sure that it has historically correlated with entry fees at tournaments in the general. But primarily, teams are there to play quiz bowl.

Also, I'd rather not get into political debates/discussions on here, for a variety of reasons.

[Howard]

The Freshman Division with speed check, though, is bad. Speed Check questions are terrible. At times, it seems, intentionally so. You don't learn anything from them, and that's the whole educational point of quiz bowl. They don't distinguish the more knowledgeable team, and that's the whole competitive point of quiz bowl. And they don't get students ready for actual quiz bowl, because a team that just plays Speed Checks will get to IS series and think "These questions go on FOREVER."

Whether speed check questions are bad is a matter of opinion. It's not true that you don't learn anything from them, but there's at least some degree of truth in the rest of your assertions. Mostly, given this tournament's structure, I don't see any reasonably likely scenario where elimination of this division will make a better tournament. There's nothing preventing any of the entrants in this division from entering the main division if they agree that this division is pointless. Ultimately, if this division has no entrants or a small number of entrants, it will cease to exist all on its own. On the other hand, if it garners a reasonable number of entrants, it seems to be a reasonable conclusion that those entrants disagree to at least some degree with the above-quoted assertions.

Consolation games: I'm a believer in the idea of "If you schedule it, they will play." Last week, Bloomfield didn't schedule any consolation games, not even a third-place game. Teams may not have been happy, but they went home. In October, Kellenberg held three rounds of consolation games for all teams. Only a few teams went home beforehand. The problem with unscheduled consolation games "if you want them" is that most likely they are terribly unstructured.

I've attended numerous tournaments where there was significant confusion and delay with structured consolation rounds. In some cases, teams left in the middle of the consolation rounds, causing byes. In others, there were delays because of the time required to draw up brackets (sometimes with obnoxious numbers of teams) only after it was determined how many teams were staying. In yet other cases, teams stayed and played, even though they were in actuality tired and didn't want to play, just because they felt obligated since matches were scheduled. I understand the desire for more games, and in most cases, I share that desire. But not all teams do. And in the last presented scenario, it's debatable how good this extra game is. Sure, the fact that the game occurred and some learning actually took place is a positive, but if teams feel pressured into doing things they don't want to do, this could ultimately reduce participation, resulting in less overall learning in the long run. But perhaps, most importantly, if the majority of teams actually prefer single elimination playoffs, providing that system is in fact a service to a majority of the teams. I continue to have difficulty with the premise that because an influential, well regarded group prefers one playoff format, that necessarily dictates it's the best format in all (or nearly all) scenarios.

Last but not least:
Fees are $80 for the first team. Given the 5 guaranteed games that a team in the Main division has, I invite you to compare this to the list compiled at the bottom of this post. Pinyan's Law of a rough inverse relationship between entry fee and number of games guaranteed continues to hold.

$80 per team is a lot of money for just about any quiz tournament. This entry fee does nothing to encourage more people nor more schools to play quiz bowl. Again, I'll restate my opinion that as we continually move more expensive from $50 per team, we're making it more and more difficult for quiz teams to exist and actually play quiz bowl. I understand that this tournament is a fundraiser which allows the organizing team attend tournaments, but if I have six students able to attend, I'm now much more likely to enter one team of six and alternate players than I am to enter two teams of three. I.e., in that scenario, if the entry fee were $50, you'd have actually made more money from me since I would have seen the value in entering two teams.

[Edward Powers]

Is there a field up date for the various divisions of this year's CAT?

[ChathamNJ]

Early field update:

Confirmed:
Premier
Delbarton
Half Hollow Hills West
Kings Park

Main
Half Hollow Hills West
Jonathan Dayton
Kings Park
Mother Seton (2)
North Babylon (2)

Frosh
North Babylon

Expressing interest:
Bergen County Academies
St. Joseph
William Tennent
West Orange
Governor Livingston
Bloomfield
Glen Rock
West Essex

Not too many schools have registered yet, but it's early and I haven't sent out any reminders yet so I think we're on track pretty well.

[t-bar]

Just out of curiosity, are you still using IS-95 as your question set? According to http://www.naqt.com/practice-questions.jsp?type=hs, that set is now available for purchase from NAQT, implying that it's clear for public discussion. Am I missing something here?

[jonah]

Just out of curiosity, are you still using IS-95 as your question set? According to http://www.naqt.com/practice-questions.jsp?type=hs, that set is now available for purchase from NAQT, implying that it's clear for public discussion. Am I missing something here?

According to the main page item that announced that set's (and others') availability:

Invitational Series #86 through #95 and other high school and college sets from the 2009-2010 season are now available for purchase as practice material. Please note that NAQT will delay shipping orders that may compromise the security of the year's remaining tournaments.

[bt_green_warbler]

Just out of curiosity, are you still using IS-95 as your question set? According to http://www.naqt.com/practice-questions.jsp?type=hs, that set is now available for purchase from NAQT, implying that it's clear for public discussion. Am I missing something here?

It's not clear for public discussion; it is clear for teams that are not attending this tournament to buy as HSNCT practice material.

[idrayer]

I'm working on drumming up interest from Ward Melville students. If they decide to attend, one of them should contact you soon, and I'll post here.

Edit: My facebook news feed indicates that a team is very close to registering, with approximate composition the same as was at BATE, but push Naib up to A and have no B team. They would likely be in the Main division.

Edit 2: Facebook tells me they are going to contact you in a couple of days for 1 team.

[Scarlet Minivet]

Kellenberg will most likely be attending with one team, two if we can get another parent to drive.

[SHP Pirate]

SHP will certainly have at least one team, though we will try to bring as many as four. I will be meeting with my teams on Friday morning and I will get back to you at that point.

[ChathamNJ]

Field update as of 5/10:

Confirmed:
Premier
Delbarton
Great Neck South
Half Hollow Hills West
Kellenberg
MAST
Millburn
Seton Hall Prep
St. Joseph

Main
Governor Livingston (2)
Great Neck South
Half Hollow Hills West
Jonathan Dayton
Kellenberg
Kings Park (2)
MAST
Millburn
Mother Seton (2)
North Babylon (2)
Phillipsburg (2)
St. Joseph
Ward Melville

Frosh
MAST
North Babylon
Phillipsburg
St. Joseph

Expressing interest:
Bergen County Academies
Bloomfield
Glen Rock
Seton Hall Prep (one confirmed, more possible)
St. Peter's Prep
West Essex
West Orange
William Tennent

[Edward Powers]

Any updates on registrations for the 3 divisions? Have any "interested teams" joined the fun?

[Ondes Martenot]

Word on the street is that Bergen is attending

[narwhal]

Word on the street is that Bergen is attending

Word on the street would be correct. We're in with 1.

[ChathamNJ]

Here's the field:

Premier (12)
Bergen County Academies
Columbia
Delbarton
Great Neck South
Half Hollow Hills West
High Point
Kellenberg
Millburn
Mountain Lakes
Pingry
Seton Hall Prep
St. Joseph

Main (30)
Biotech
Bloomfield
Columbia
Governor Livingston (2)
Great Neck South
Half Hollow Hills West
High Point
Jonathan Dayton
Kellenberg
Kings Park (2)
MAST
Middletown North
Millburn
Morristown-Beard
Mother Seton (2)
Mountain Lakes
North Babylon (2)
Phillipsburg (2)
Pingry
Seton Hall Prep (2)
St. Joseph
St. Peter's Prep (2)
Ward Melville

Frosh (6)
MAST
North Babylon
Phillipsburg
Pingry (2)
St. Joseph

[ChathamNJ]

Prelim standings are now posted at http://results.scobo.net/Chatham/CATIV

The Apple and Cherry divisions were Premier (all teams made playoffs), while the Pizza division was all Frosh.

St. Joe's freshman team defeated North Babylon 175-90.

The quarterfinals are going right now:
1 St. Joe's A v 8 Pingry A
4 Delbarton v 5 Millburn A
2 Kellenberg A v 7 Seton Hall Prep A
3 Bergen A v 11 North Babylon B

(We accepted 24 teams into the playoffs - all 12 Premier teams and the top 2 from each Main bracket, plus one tie and the only 3-1-1 team to make it an even number.)

I will post full playoff scores in the near future.

[Dan-Don]

Why use single elimination?

EDIT: I guess that's been addressed. Yeah this tourney just way too many elements of bad quizbowl and funn.

[jonpin]

[sigh] I guess individual stats would've been too much to ask for?

[BroNi]

From an email from the TD....

"The playoff results were as follows:
Bumper round:
2 St. Joseph A d. 1 Kellenberg A, 335-285
3 Bergen A d. 4 Delbarton, 470-85
5 Millburn A d. 6 Great Neck South, 295-80
7 Seton Hall Prep A d. 8 Pingry A, 305-200

Play-in round:
9 Governor Livingston A d. 24 St. Peter's Prep B, 175-65
10 Columbia d. 23 Phillipsburg A, 280-25
11 North Babylon B d. 22 Ward Melville A, 290-85
12 High Point A d. 21 Kellenberg B, 225-90
13 North Babylon A d. 20 St. Joseph B, 205-125
14 Half Hollow Hills West A d. 19 Millburn B, 300-95
15 Mountain Lakes B d. 18 Kings Park B, 160-130
17 Jonathan Dayton d. 16 Mountain Lakes A, 225-70

Round of 16:
1 St. Joseph A d. Jonathan Dayton, 390-20
2 Kellenberg A d. Mountain Lakes B, 585-20
3 Bergen A d. HHHW A, 365-155
4 Delbarton d. No. Babylon A, 295-170
5 Millburn A d. High Point A, 305-140
11 No. Babylon B d. Great Neck South, 200-165
7 SHP A d. Columbia, 345-95
8 Pingry A d. GL A, 410-65

Quarters:
1 St. Joe's A d. Pingry A, 385-180
2 Kellenberg A d. SHP A, 390-200
3 Bergen A d. No Babylon B, 355-180
4 Delbarton d. Millburn A, 345-170

Semis:
1 St. Joe's A d. Delbarton, 405-120
2 Kellenberg A d. Bergen A, 340-210

Finals:
2 Kellenberg A d. St. Joe's A, 450-110

Frosh Finals:
2 St. Joe's d. 1 North Babylon, 175-90

Congratulations to Kellenberg for winning it all, and for St. Joe's freshman team for winning that competition. Both teams avenged preliminary losses by winning in the finals."