Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

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Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Chimalpahin Quauhtlehuanitzin » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:19 pm

This is the general announcement for the 2014 Vanderbilt University Pre-Nationals, a regular difficulty high school quizbowl tournament, to be hosted at Vanderbilt's Buttrick Hall, 2400 Vanderbilt Pl, Nashville, TN 37212, (and Stevenson 4309 auditorium) on Saturday, April 19th, 2014. It will use this year's Prison Bowl set.
Registration will begin at 8:00 AM, the first round by 9 AM, and the tournament will hopefully finish by 5 PM.

http://www.hsquizbowl.org/db/tournaments/2092/

Location and directions:
The tournament will take place in Buttrick Hall, 2400 Vanderbilt Pl, Nashville, TN 37212, approachable easily from I-440's exit 1A onto West End heading north, or I-40's exit 209B on Broadway heading South towards the Medical Center, or just from Charlotte Ave. to West End heading towards the West side of campus near the roundabout near Kirkland Hall. Note: you can't actually park near Buttrick, but you can drive up close to it (for drop-off) via West Side Row (off 24th Ave S) which will put you behind Rand dining hall with a 2 minute walk to Buttrick. Stevenson is right across from Buttrick, so no worries there.

Parking:
Is limited, so I've linked the campus map as well as the Medical Center parking map here and here. These should give adequate guidelines for parking and locations. Tip: I'd suggest parking in either the Terrace Place or Wesley Place garages, which are about 7-10 minutes from Buttrick, but free and likely large enough, as opposed to the reserved lots that surround the area.

Questions:
This tournament will use the 2014 Prison Bowl set, written by Hunter College High and University of Buffalo team members. Questions are 20/20 format with 20 tossups in a round accompanied each by a 3-part, 30 point bonus, and tiebreakers. There will be negs, but no powers, and ACF rules sections D-I will be followed.

Affiliation:
We are seeking PACE Affiliation hopefully at a Platinum-level, but the field for NSC fills up quickly and will possibly be full by the time this tournament happens.

Format:
This tournament will use the 20 tossup/20 bonus format. Preliminary brackets will be seeded and then playoff brackets will be determined based on record. All teams will be offered a minimum of 10 games, double-elimination (liable to change as well with staffer count). Rounds will not be timed, but no round should be longer than 35 minutes. Statistics will be kept in full. Trophies will be awarded to the top (likely three) teams, and book prizes will be awarded to the top three individual scorers. The Vanderbilt team reserves the right to cap the field based on moderator availability, which we are especially short on for this tournament. The current cap is 24 teams.

Fees:
Base fee: $80 per first team, $70 per second team, so on. There is no limit to the number of teams who can attend from one school, but schools sending more than two teams are REQUIRED to provide a competent staffer. This will change if we get more than 15 or so total staffers.
There will be a $15 discount for experienced staffers who can moderate, a $5 discount per buzzer, and a $5 discount for every 150 miles traveled one-way according to Google Maps.
The minimum fee is $50.

Registration:
This tournament is by invitation-only. We will email and contact as many teams as possible, however, if you feel that you didn't get one and deserve one, just e-mail us at vandyquizbowl@gmail.com. (We are still contacting teams!)
EDIT: This tournament is now open to everyone.
E-mail us at vandyquizbowl@gmail.com with
1. The number of teams, buzzers, and staffers you can bring.
2. A phone number for a coach that will be there with you on the day of the competition.
3. An email address where you/your coach can be contacted for further details or changes.

Payment:
We prefer payment on the day of, but feel free to send checks to us ahead of time (Email us for the address to send the check to!) All teams must pay by 4/19/14. Cash, personal checks, funds from an organization, or checks are all fine. Purchase orders, credit cards, Paypal, or anything else that we can't process will not be counted as payment and you will have to pay late fees of 25$. All checks must be made out to "Vanderbilt Quiz Bowl". If you need a pre-tournament invoice or W-9 form in order to have a check written, you must let us know by February 1st, so that we can send you the paperwork in time and so your payment can be on time.

Team size:
The maximum number of players on any one team is 6. Chances for substitutions always occur after Bonus 10 in each round (half-time), and if your moderator doesn't ask you, just briefly tell them the name of the player(s) you are substituting in/out. Each player may appear on only one team's roster throughout the day, and we will keep stats as such. Teams with one to four players are welcome.

Food:
Neither breakfast nor lunch (and definitely not dinner, because we won't be going that late) will be provided. However, here's a list of places, from fast-food to sit-down, that are open during lunch break which will likely be around an hour. Note: these are NOT in order of distance from Buttrick, and some are about a 15 minute walk, but Jimmy John's, Moe's, and Quiznos, San Antonio Taco Company, Panera, and Subway are closest to Buttrick.

Along West End
Taco Bell
Checkers
Amerigo's
Five Guys
Jason's Deli
Jack in the Box
Qdoba
TGI Friday's
Jimmy Johns
Moe's
PF Chang's
Bread & Company
Wendy's
J. Alexander's

Along 21st Ave S
San Antonio Taco Company
Panera
Subway
Chipotle
Mellow Mushroom
Wendy's

Please email me if you have any further questions. I'm looking forward to seeing a wide variety of teams from Tennessee and surrounding states on the 19th!
Rohan Nag
Member/Logistics, Vanderbilt Quiz Bowl

Current field: 12 teams/24 total, 9 buzzers, 3-4? moderator(s)
Ballard [KY] (1,1,1)
Corbin [KY] (1,0,0)
Dunbar [KY] (2,2,0)
duPont Manual [KY] (2,0,0)
Ezell-Harding (1,0,0)
Farragut (1,2,0)
L&N STEM (2,1,2)
Sidney [OH] (1,1,0)
University School of Nashville (1,1,1)
Last edited by Chimalpahin Quauhtlehuanitzin on Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:13 pm, edited 35 times in total.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Alexandrescu » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:15 pm

Farragut would like to register 2 teams
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Chimalpahin Quauhtlehuanitzin » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:29 pm

We have EDIT: 14 confirmed registrations and EDIT: 3 or so schools showing interest at this point, which is perfectly fine. Teams should remember that this is Easter Weekend in their planning/confirmation.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Chimalpahin Quauhtlehuanitzin » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:11 pm

This tournament still has lots of space open! I was hoping for 16, but 14 will do fine. On another note, this will probably be single-elimination with a minimum of 10 rounds offered to each team.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby The Predictable Consequences » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:15 pm

Chimalpahin Quauhtlehuanitzin wrote:This tournament still has lots of space open! I was hoping for 16, but 14 will do fine. On another note, this will probably be single-elimination with a minimum of 10 rounds offered to each team.

Why not round-robin playoffs? There are easy schedules for 14 teams, and if you're giving teams 10 games anyway, you may as well use the fairer playoff format.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Chimalpahin Quauhtlehuanitzin » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:21 pm

Yeah, I'm definitely considering that. The most likely scenario is 15 teams, though, because Ezell is probably coming in some form.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Cody » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:26 pm

15 teams = brackets of 8/7 [7 rounds, 6-7 games] + 4/4(3) crossover in 4 rounds = 10-11 games, 11 rounds.

Please ask for help instead of doing something wonky.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Chimalpahin Quauhtlehuanitzin » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:31 pm

Cody wrote:15 teams = brackets of 8/7 [7 rounds, 6-7 games] + 4/4(3) crossover in 4 rounds = 10-11 games, 11 rounds.

Please ask for help instead of doing something wonky.


That is what I had written down.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Alexandrescu » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:23 pm

Standings for the top 4:

Dunbar A
Farragut
Ezell Harding
Sidney
Kai Smith
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Chimalpahin Quauhtlehuanitzin » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:40 pm

Congratulations to Dunbar A, your champions!
Farragut came in second, Ezell-Harding was third, and Sidney came in fourth, as Kai posted above.
The top scorers from the prelims were, in order, Kai Smith (Farragut), Jack Zhang (Ballard), Griffin Ray (Ezell-Harding), Neelav Dutta (Dunbar A), and Case Nieboer (USN).
I'll have stats up as early as tomorrow, since I actually have all the scoresheets this time.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby serasuna » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:00 pm

Congrats to Dunbar A! I hope everyone enjoyed the set. As a reminder, Prison Bowl is not clear for public discussion until Monday, May 19, 2014.

If anyone has any comments or feedback on the set, we would love to hear from you at hchsqb@gmail.com or in the Prison Bowl private discussion subforum (join at User Control Panel on the top left > Usergroups > Prison Bowl).
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Chimalpahin Quauhtlehuanitzin » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:45 am

http://www.hsquizbowl.org/db/tournament ... all_games/
They're up as promised. I'd like to note that most of the revenue from this will go straight to NASAT fees.

Corbin didn't show up. Dunbar left early, and teams didn't want to play more games, so I broke the 1st-2nd and 7th-8th tie by PPB as per ACF Rule I.2.
The only way to show this correctly on SQBS was the SoS thing.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Matt Weiner » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:26 am

Chimalpahin Quauhtlehuanitzin wrote:Corbin didn't show up. Dunbar left early, and teams didn't want to play more games, so I broke the 1st-2nd and 7th-8th tie by PPB as per ACF Rule I.2.
The only way to show this correctly on SQBS was the SoS thing.


Those ACF rules are suggestions on how to break ties when you are, e.g., taking three teams out of a prelim bracket for two spots in the playoffs. In this case, I don't believe you did the right things -- in any situation where you have a round-robin (such as a new RR or a crossover playoff) and you need to break a tie without a packet, you should use PPG in the games that determine playoff standing, not PPB. However, you don't have a tie here. "Leaving early" or "not wanting to play more games" is called forfeiting. In a normal situation, this means you should have just given the title to Farragut since Dunbar forfeits the final you ought to have played.

I'm guessing, however, that this was not a normal situation -- Dunbar plays lots of tournaments every year and I've never heard of them leaving early before. Just how long did it take you to run an eleven-game schedule here?
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Chimalpahin Quauhtlehuanitzin » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:44 am

Matt Weiner wrote:
Chimalpahin Quauhtlehuanitzin wrote:Corbin didn't show up. Dunbar left early, and teams didn't want to play more games, so I broke the 1st-2nd and 7th-8th tie by PPB as per ACF Rule I.2.
The only way to show this correctly on SQBS was the SoS thing.


Those ACF rules are suggestions on how to break ties when you are, e.g., taking three teams out of a prelim bracket for two spots in the playoffs. In this case, I don't believe you did the right things -- in any situation where you have a round-robin (such as a new RR or a crossover playoff) and you need to break a tie without a packet, you should use PPG in the games that determine playoff standing, not PPB. However, you don't have a tie here. "Leaving early" or "not wanting to play more games" is called forfeiting. In a normal situation, this means you should have just given the title to Farragut since Dunbar forfeits the final you ought to have played.


Ah, my sincerest apologies. It's my fault alone that I misinterpreted the rules.
I'll change the standings on the stats and notify teams accordingly.

Matt Weiner wrote:I'm guessing, however, that this was not a normal situation -- Dunbar plays lots of tournaments every year and I've never heard of them leaving early before. Just how long did it take you to run an eleven-game schedule here?


They left around 5, which I think isn't too long. They wanted to get home before 10 or something of that nature, and kept saying that the drive was 4 hours or something like that.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Matt Weiner » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:50 am

I don't think going back and retroactively changing the winner of this tournament by fiat a second time is going to be good for your relationship with the teams who participated. Please don't do that. Instead, start taking concrete steps (like moderator training and developing a more realistic outlook on your own part that isn't constantly obsessed with the wrong things) that ensure it doesn't take you over eight hours to run eleven rounds at your next tournament.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Alexandrescu » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:34 am

For the record, both Dunbar and Farragut agreed to the outcome, as Dunbar had to head home and we still had NASAT tryouts after the tournament.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby NickConderWKU » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:06 pm

Matt Weiner wrote: Instead, start taking concrete steps (like moderator training and developing a more realistic outlook on your own part that isn't constantly obsessed with the wrong things) that ensure it doesn't take you over eight hours to run eleven rounds at your next tournament.


I don't know anything about the specific situation at the end, but it seems like a mistake was made and I'm sure the people involved will learn from it.

From what I know, concrete steps have already improved Vanderbilt's tournaments to some extent, at least compared to the utter disasters they used to call a tournament. The only reason that "single-elimination" was floated in this thread is because that's how people at Vandy think tournaments should be run, and I'm glad it seems like newer voices are steering them away from such horrendous ideas. I'd like to think that next year their tournaments can be improved even more, and I'll certainly continue to give them advice every chance I get as they try to clean up the mess in Nashville. However the club leadership is still out of the step of the community and I worry that Rohan's reforms will be ignored by the club in subsequent years.

At the very least I'm glad that such complaints are finally being heard and addressed by somebody at Vanderbilt, after years of everybody being completely ignored and actually laughed at when they recommended they improve their events.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Matt Weiner » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:13 pm

I don't know if that kind of thinking is so great, Nick. Just moving to "don't use single elimination" when that apparently means "be running round 11 at 5:00 because your staff isn't up to par" and "decide the champion based on bonus conversion" (!!!) is exactly what people mean when they talk about cargo-culting arbitrary good quizbowl behaviors without understanding the reason for them or the entire system of which they are a part. Anything Vanderbilt is doing better is good, and surely we can all support and offer help to them when asked, but I don't see how the results of this tournament (in which the champion was determined by someone basically deciding who had won a hypothetical game) are any more fair than single-elim, in actual effect.

I'll also take this opportunity to denounce the "teams agreed not to play a final" thing, which we've seen in other tournaments before. When one team stands to benefit from a forfeit win because their opponent is going to leave instead of playing, it puts them in a terrible position where they either have to agree to take a loss, or look "unsportsmanlike" by insisting on an "unearned" win. It's incumbent on TDs to say that a team which declines to play a game, for any reason, has forfeited that game, and not allow any of this "agreeing not to play"/conceding to stats to take place. I believe PACE learned this the hard way in 2011, and others should take the opportunity to learn from the example and not suffer similar pains.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby NickConderWKU » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:16 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:I don't know if that kind of thinking is so great, Nick. Just moving to "don't use single elimination" when that apparently means "be running round 11 at 5:00 because your staff isn't up to par" and "decide the champion based on bonus conversion" (!!!) is exactly what people mean when they talk about cargo-culting arbitrary good quizbowl behaviors without understanding the reason for them or the entire system of which they are a part. Anything Vanderbilt is doing better is good, and surely we can all support and offer help to them when asked, but I don't see how the results of this tournament (in which the champion was determined by someone basically deciding who had won a hypothetical game) are any more fair than single-elim, in actual effect.


That's fair.
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Re: Vanderbilt Pre-Nationals [Prison Bowl], 4/19/14

Postby Chimalpahin Quauhtlehuanitzin » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:49 pm

Yeah, I agree with what's been said above, but unfortunately I won't be TDing any more as per the club's annual Presidential appointments, so I don't know how much knowledge (if any) they will retain from this experience. For reference, I offered 10 rounds and double elimination at ABC, and I do realise how much I screwed up here.
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